Jane Eyre Chapters 24-29
So all is revealed...be sure to provide a spoiler alert if you are going to give something away in your post.
Two posts by Thursday class time. Please do not repeat other people's ideas. Specific citations of the text are strongly encouraged!
posted by Ms. Clapp @ 11:18 AM
41 comments
41 Comments:
Let me just say after reading this non stop, i didn't know whether to be really mad at Mr. Rochester or pity him. Going to spoil this for the ones who haven't finished the reading. I really liked to comment on this quote " A fierce cry seemed to give the lie to her favorable report: a clothed hyena rose up, stood tall on its hind-feet." (316)
This is when Mr. Rochester takes Jane to see Mrs. Rochester Mr. Mason's sister. I think it so tragic that his wife is mentioned to be a hyena clothed women. Mr. Rochester shows no compassion for her even through everything, taking care of her by living her with Grace Poole seems minimal. The role of Grace Poole now seems to be reversed as well, because I feel that it was not her doing all the wrongs in the house however, Mrs. Rochester taking her revenge on the marriage that has utterly failed. When I said earlier I didn't know whether to be mad over the whole situation or pity Mr. Rochester was because being mad should be Jane. However Jane doesn't seem to be showing much madness she is so cool, quiet, and calm about everything, it made me question her true honest feelings for him were not as strong as they appeared to be once. I also wanted to comment on the whole pitying thing. I do pity him because now he has no one, because Jane refuses to be his mistress because she has much pride. I think the life he will lead is much spoiled by the marriage to a crazy women. Before i continue to take it hard on Mr. Rochester I want to see what other peoples opinions on him and his hidden secret are.
Well, I"m going to say that I more pity Mr. Rochester than I am angry with him. I don't pity him in the way that I feel bad he is with such a wife, but I pity him for being the man he is and the way he is. I pity his lies and his lifestyle, because he is far from honest and sincere. I still don't think he's telling the whole truth about Mrs. Rochester's condition. I mean, she was presentable in public to him yet all of a sudden she is this raging mad woman who attacks people? Why didn't she attack anyone before? It just doesn't make sense or add up.
Also...I feel as if Bertha is symbolic of what Jane's future could have been. Rochester is not an honest man and what he is doing when he explains to Jane his situation can be seen as, it's bad but its not THAT bad. Almost like, "Come on baby, you know you're more important than those other girls!" But with a wife. Rochester is lying to Jane about the cause of his wife's condition and I even think he helped her insanity along. I feel like Bertha is what Jane could possibly become if she marries Rochester and becomes his wife. Not exactly as mad, but the role of a housewife, which is what Jane aspires to differentiate from, would make her feel trapped and help her along the road to insanity. I don't really feel as if Bertha is taking revenge on her marriage, I think she truly is mad and she no longer knows what she is doing.
From the way Rochester describes his encounters with women, he tires pretty easily and this can go one of two ways with Jane Eyre. Eventually, he might have tired of her and cast her aside as he did Mrs. Rochester or Jane might have been the one to "change him". I mean, he does express fears that, "I was for a while troubled with a haunting fear that if I handled the flower freely its bloom would fade--the sweet charm of freshness would leave it,"(Bronte 339). So there is evidence he might have become tired of Jane.
I believe Rochester cheated on Mrs. Rochester at the time when she was still sane or had some semblance of sanity within her. This does take place in the Victorian period and it was customary of men to cheat. His treatment of her and his dalliances might have caused her to go into fits of rage with him and whatnot and the more he ignored her, the more she worsened. I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Mr. Rochester might have even locked her up long before she was proclaimed "mad" by the doctors.
Another thing to think about would be Jane's position as a governess once again. What better girl to mess around with than Jane? Who is but a low governess? Who would care if anything should happen to Jane? Also, if he ever did tire of her, she'd be very easy to cast off. Yes, now we know she has family, but Mr. Rochester didn't at first.
And....OH MY GOODNESS!!! SPOILER ALERT!!! I was so shocked Jane ran away and now that she is housed, I can only say one thing: She's becoming like Rochester! She ran away and has secrets of her own that she is hiding and while her acquaintances who took her in know something is wrong, they don't know what. It's just like Jane was with Mr. Rochester, she knew something was wrong, but she didn't know exactly what was wrong. I think there might be some growing attraction between Jane and Mr. St. John(I think he's a pastor, not a priest so he might be able to marry). Jane would be forced to reveal her secret and there would definitely be some conflict there. Or Mr. Rochester might even come back...wow, I'm making this out to be way too much of a soap opera.
But there are so many possibilities for what could happen, they're endless! Mr. Rochester is probably looking for Jane right now anyways, and what will happen when he finds her?!!!
Oh, I have a question too. I know that his wife is proclaimed mad, but why couldn't he divorce her? Was it illegal to divorce someone who was declared mad? I didn't really get that, if someone could offer their opinions on that one for me, thanks...
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OH MY!! So much has happened in these chapters that I don’t know where to begin…
(for the spoiler alert…make sure you guys scan through the page numbers in my blog, to make sure that you have already read those pages)
Okay, so I’ll begin with a question that I have about Jane’s dreams…Jane says, “I was burdened with the charge of a little child: a very small creature, too young and feeble to walk, and which shivered in my cold arms…”(303) and “I dreamt another dream sir: that….the child clung round my neck in terror, and almost strangled me….the child rolled from my knee, I lost my balance, fell, and woke”(304-305). As the chapter goes on to end, Jane goes on to state “little Adele in my arms, I watched the slumber of childhood”(308). Was the child in Jane’s dreams Adele? The child could also somehow symbolize Jane as a child (her troubled childhood), because, again, towards the end of the chapter, Jane says that Adele “seemed the emblem of [her] past life”(309), which could explain why Jane “cried over her with strange emotion”(308), as she had to leave her. Any ideas?
Finally, we find out about the mysterious Grace Poole…Bertha Mason is “Mrs. Poole’s patient, and [Mr. Rochester’s] wife!”(315). Aww…it’s so sad how Grace was misrepresented all along…poor thing. So this is basically what Mr. Rochester was planning on telling Jane in the future, since earlier, on page 307, he says “I see why you would ask why I keep such a woman in my house: when we have been married a year and a day, I will tell you….”
Analu, I personally feel sorry for Mr. Rochester. Hearing about his life, and how he was basically taken advantage of by his family, and thus placed into a life where he had to think of how to care for a woman, whom he says “[he] never loved, [he] never esteemed, [he] did not even know”(329), which led to him being on “the verge of despair”(331). Jane too felt bad for him, as on page 331, she says, “I pity you—I do pity you.”
Nivele, in regards with why the “real” Mrs. Rochester didn’t have any abnormal behavior before, I am not sure…I too was confused about that. However, like I quoted in my blog, Mr. Rochester tells Jane that he wasn’t too acquainted with Bertha. On page 330, he says that once they were married, and he began to spend more time with her, he realized that he “could not pass a single evening…of the day with her in comfort…her violent and unreasonable temper….” I hope that helps.
Nivele, I was thinking that it would be so cool and interesting if the book were to switch now…from Jane being at Thornfield with Mr. Rochester, to Jane being with the Rivers with Mr. St. John…that would be a great read…
Nivele, your other question about why the divorce couldn’t take place…on page 331, he states “doctors now discovered that my wife was mad—her excesses had prematurely developed the germs of insanity.” Its kind of like nowadays, were MORALLY people look down upon spouses who divorce their mates once they have BECOME sick. Given that Mr. Rochester didn’t know Bertha too, he didn’t know that she behaved the way she does…since he wants a divorce, people (government officials) would have probably been like “if she was mad when you married her, then why did you?”…or “if you didn’t know her, why did you marry her?”…now that the government knows that she is “mad,” they do not want her to be divorced and alone, with no one to care for her.
Comments anyone?
Hmm, I have to say, for some odd reason I wasn't terribly surprised that Jane didn't go through with the marriage; in the previous chapter, it was said that only "half of it split away." (276) In this case, it was Jane who split away from Rochester, after the big reveal of hiding his wife (who is very much alive) in the attic.
Speaking of Bertha, I want to comment on what Bertha would signify. At first, I thought of her as a foil to Jane, in the sense that she was out of control, and contained, whereas Jane was more composed and free. But then I saw that it was possible that Bertha would represent the inner workings of the typical oppressed woman in society of that age, in being contained and secretly raging against the fact that there is no escape.
And THEN I figured that perhaps Bertha could be a warning against Jane; after all, right after Rochester proposed, the next morning he’s already trying to control her. Rochester tells of what he’ll do, and makes Jane “uneasy at the strain he had adopted…I felt he was either deluding himself or trying to delude me.” (278). It’s as if Rochester did a complete one-eighty once he realized that he had what he wanted now; in a sense, it’s almost like the “honeymoon” stage of an abusive relationship. It starts off nice, and pleasant, and it’s as if they can do no wrong; after that stage however, it begins to trail off into violence, in which case could have been the path Rochester could have been trailing off to in terms of control.
Wow, I was surprised at the plot twist in these six chapters, but then again I wasn't. As I mentioned before in a previous blog, it would have been out of character for Jane and Mr. Rochester to have been wed happily and went off to live happily ever after. Because of an illusion in The Turn of the Screw to Mr. Rochester keeping his first wife locked up in the house, I had vague predictions that this wife would come up somehow and interfere with his marriage to Jane. However, I didn't expect it to cause such a ruckus! It amazed me when reading to how much times have changed since then...Jane's heart nearly broke with the knowledge of his first wife and his three mistresses from other countries, but in today's society, the situation would be a lot more acceptable.
In chapter 24, I noticed a lot of symbolism regarding elements of nature: the wind, the chestnut tree, rain, etc. What stuck with me the most while reading was how the chestnut tree was described. Bronte writes, "it stood up, black and riven: the trunk, split down the center, gasped ghastly. The cloven halves were not broken from each other, for the firm base and strong roots kept them unsundered below; though community of vitality was destroyed--the sap could flow no more: thier great boughs on each side were dead...a ruin..." (297)
While before I thought the chestnut tree symbolized the struggles Jane and Rochester would have to face in their marriage, now I realize with this imagery of the burnt tree that it was foreshadowing their doomed marriage. The tree is severely damaged, but not completely severed apart, just as at the end of chapter 29 Jane is trying to push Rochester out of her life, but a part of her still yearns for him.
In response to Analu's hesitance to feel anger or pity towards Mr. Rochester, I felt that when I was reading I pitied Mr. Rochester more, and felt more angry with Jane. Looking at the text more subjectively than objectively, her completely virtuous and stubborn morals regarding why she couldn't stay with him after knowledge of his first wife really got me fired. I believe that all these strict rules that Jane establishes for herself are a direct influence of her years at Lowood, especially the product of her admiration of Helen and Ms. Temple.
As for Mr. Rochester, I felt sympathetic to how he was begging Jane to stay and she repeatedly refused...but at the same time I wasn't sure if he could be trusted with the newly revealed knowledge of the excursions of his youth. However, my question is: Did Bronte intend for the reader to be sympathetic towards Rochester or to think he was a jerk?
Well, either way all I know is that we haven't seen the last of Rochester. I mean, it's supposed to be a love story between Jane and Rochester, so it would be very disappointing if Rochester wasn't to appear again.
Something I thought interesting to see in the book was the dialect of the servant in the Moor Household;Hannah. She speaks very plainly and from reading the whole book, it's almost as if everyone in that time period spoke like Jane and Rochester etc. To see that there were individuals who didn't speak so perfectly makes it easier to understand how the English language has become so less formal than presented in the speech of Jane and Rochester.
Also, in reference to Marissa's comment about the children, I don't think it had much to do with Adele or with Jane's past. It served more as foreshadowing for the future with Jane's wedding. Jane has already stated before in the novel that dreaming of children was an omen; an evil sign. So the dream was more symbolic of a horrible event about to take place.
Also expanding a bit more on the subject of the dream here, "I thought, sir, that you were on the road a lonw way before me; and I strained every nerve to overtake you, and made effort on effort to utter your name and entreat you to stop--but my movements were fettered, and my voice still died away inarticulate; while you, I felt, withdrew farther and farther every movement"(Bronte 303). This is symbolic of Mr. Rochester's marriage as the obstacle in Jane's path to Mr. Rochester. Mr. Rochester is out of reach legally as a married man. It's rather ironic that in the dream it was Rochester who withdrew farther and farther away since Jane was the one who ran away and therefore was physically out of his reach. Jane's inability to speak could also symbolize her struggle between her mind and her heart. Jane's heart makes every attempt to remain with Rochester, but her will and mind refuse to let her.
I didn't want to stop reading after these chapters. I just want to know what happens at the end! To answer Tainaira’s question, of why Bertha didn't attack anyone before, I think she was the one who set fire to Rochester’s room and the one to stab Mr. Mason. In the SRD, we most of us thought that Grace Poole was the one to do all those things, and since Grace Poole was the one to take care of Bertha, Grace seems to have just taken all the blame.
I disagree with Tainaira when she said Rochester cheated on his wife to make her become that way. I think she was born with it, because her mother had a mental illness, it’s probably hereditary. But I do think that there is some symbolism in Bertha being crazy. I agree with Malisa that it could “represent the inner workings of the typical oppressed woman in society”, instead of the Honeymoon phase. I really don’t think he did anything to Bertha.
I pity Rochester, more than feel anger towards him. Rochester had to live with his “capitol error”. I agree with Marissa that it was morally wrong to divorce your spouse, but I think it was that he felt obligated to keep her, since she is the mother of their child, and Rochester is a good man, even if he had a huge secret. He deserves to love, too, especially being arranged into a marriage, and being the second son.
Jane’s appeal for a wedding without pomp and her selection of a subdued wedding, illustrate her own short comings. Jane is aware of the social difference between the two and Mrs. Fairfax reminds her with the line, “all the Rochesters were proud: and his father at least, liked money. He, too, has always been careful. He means to marry you?”(284) as we acknowledged in class, the upper class married into rich families in order to obtain more wealth, and Mrs. Fairfax’s query is well founded. She always says to Jane as a warning, ‘all is not gold that glitters’; and in this case I do fear there will be something found to be different to what either you or I expect”(285). Her lines definitely foreshadow turmoil to come, just as the tree splitting in two symbolized Jane and Mr. Rochester splitting in two. Also Mrs. Fairfax’s warning brings back the chill in Jane, the coldness that we are familiar with; contrary to the warmth and blissful previous day/night. However, Jane has again morphed, she says, “My future husband was becoming to me my whole world; and more than the world; almost my hope of heaven. He stood between me and every thought of religion, as an eclipse intervenes between man and the broad sun. I can not, in those days, see God for His creature: of whom I made an idol”(295). I may be incorrect but is this Jane’s first meditation on God since arriving to Thornfield? Anyway, we observe here that Jane’s feelings of love have manifested into feelings of adoration and lust. If instructed, Jane would seriously do anything for this man. Does anyone agree that this relationship is unhealthy? And also, what does she mean when she says, “eclipse intervenes between man and the broad sun?” I assume that the broad sun is an allusion to God, so an eclipse, Mr. Rochester blocking her from God? What significance does that play?
It’s interesting to see that in the midst of Jane’s own feelings, that Mr. Rochester is quite taken away by the preparation of this wedding and his feelings for Jane. However, I am concerned about his forwardness to Jane wearing the family jewels. Although the jewels are a symbol the old British aristocracy, they do not fit well with Jane, not only because of Jane’s socioeconomic standing but because of her personality. Jane does not appreciate the frivolous things in life, as individuals in Mr. Rochester’s social class do. Also, his suggestion is an example as we said in class of him exerting his power. He says, “I will make he world acknowledge your beauty,” his lines illustrate force. Mr. Rochester may be trying to compensate for Jane’s shortcomings by having her wear these jewels; does anyone have any thoughts on my assertion?
Mother of their child? What...I think I completely missed this then.
And I guess I didn't phrase what I said very correctly. I think she was born with a mental illness but that Mr. Rochester's actions might have progressed that illness. For instance, her fits of rage and unusual demands, also her inability to carry a conversation or speak legibly is indicative of schizophrenia. If her mother had the illness, she is also 11 times more likely to carry it. But...schizophrenia often manifests in young adulthood and can be helped along by social and environmental factors. So I do believe that there definitely exists some possibility that her time at Thornfield Hall could have developed her illness even further. Also, if Rochester did cheat and she found out, she would be extremely paranoid and delusional if she wasn't already of his personality.
It's all conjecture, but it's fun anyways.
It has seemed that Jane and Rochesters wedding has been doomed from the start.
The "warning" appeared to start when the tree was split in two by lightning. Then on pages 286-288, Adele argues with Rochester about Jane "going to the moon" with him. She argues that Jane, "will have nothing to eat...she will want to warm herself...ande her clothes, they will wear out: how can she get new ones?" (286-287). Adele's arguement that Jane would not be well cared for with Rochester is greater emphasized when Rochester calls her a fairy who will go with him and make their "own heaven yonder", to which Adele calls him, "un vrai menteur", (a true liar)and it is mentioned that Adele, "was sure they would never appear to him, nor ever give himrings, or offer to live with him in the moon" (288).
Weather has also continued to convey the mood of the events that occur. The beginning of chapter 23 starts, "A splendid midsummer shone over England:skies so pure, suns so radiant as were then seen in long succession", which, as we know is the chapter where Rochester proposes. However, after it is revealed that Rochester has a lunatic wife hidden in the attic, Jane states that, "a Christmas frost had come at midsummer; a white December storm had whirled over June; ice glazed the ripe apples, drifts crushed the blowing roses..." (319). This as well as mentions of wind and rain throughout the time before Jane and Rochester were to be married just add on to the signs that things would end badly.
I also pity Mr. Rochester’s life and his situation. But I disagree with Lilly and Marrisa’s thoughts that it was “morally wrong to divorce your spouse”. Rochester was forced into the union with Bertha because it was designed to bring security to both families, as marriage often was for the upper class. So rather than it was morally wrong to divorce, he just couldn’t.
Tainara I loved your thoughts that: Hannah speaks very plainly and from reading the whole book, it's almost as if everyone in that time period spoke like Jane and Rochester etc. To see that there were individuals who didn't speak so perfectly makes it easier to understand how the English language has become so less formal than presented in the speech of Jane and Rochester. The Victorian period in literature isn’t as straight forward as it could have been and along the same lines, a complaint. Because the language is subtle, symbols are often lost. But anyway, here's a goody that i connected with your words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X72MwJBSRdg&feature=related
To answer Taylor’s question, Did Bronte intend for the reader to be sympathetic towards Rochester or to think he was a jerk? I believe that she meant for the reader to feel sympathetic towards Rochester, just as we feel sympathy towards Jane. I’m conflicted here because he lied to Jane but also I feel pity because he just wanted love, as Lilly said. But although Mr. Rochester had many mistresses in his past, I feel that he did it to compensate for his miserable marriage.
I don't know if anyone mentioned the new family that has taken Jane in. I'm really shocked that Jane Eyre turned to the streets over waiting for something to show up for her. No she just left and left without that much money and soon became a homeless. I think it was really unlike Jane to just take off without anything waiting for her.
I wanted to talk about this new family that near her death took her in and took care of Jane. I'd like to talk about Mr. St John Rivers, he seems so suspicious in many ways. I feel that even after Jane said that she would prefer to not talk about her past life and what happened that she came to be, he is still itching on trying to find out more about Jane. Granted that the way she showed up wasn't the most professional one however, the girls Mary and Diana seem to be utterly won by her and her purity. I don't understand why he doubts her so much.
“I dreamt I lay in the red-room at Gateshead; that the night was dark, and my mind impressed with strange fears. The light that long ago had struck me into syncope, recalled in this vision, seemed glidingly to mount the wall, and tremblingly to pause in the centre of the obscured ceiling. I lifted up my head to look: the roof resolved to clouds high and dim; the gleam was such as the moon imparts to vapours she is about to sever. I watched her come- watched with the strangest anticipation; as though some word of doom were to be written on her disc. She broke forth as never moon yet burst from cloud: a hand first penetrated the sable folds and waved them away, then not a moon, but a white human form shone in the azure, inclining a glorious brow earthward. It gazed and gazed at me. It spoke to my spirit: immeasurably distant was the tone yet so near, it whispered in my heart- “My daughter, flee temptation.” “Mother, I will.” (pg 345)
Ok I found this part in the book really interesting. I kept wondering if the mother she sees her own mother or maybe is having a religious moment right now. Throughout the conversation she has with Mr.Rochester and tries to tell him that she is definitely going to leave him, she tells him to “trust in God” and himself. I see this “Mother” almost like a guardian angel to Jane. Jane admits herself that she too herself finds it hard to say no to him. She does not want to leave him, but because of her values and her pride she knows she has to do it. This Mother is just another boost to Jane to do what’s right for her.
I also find it interesting that the dream starts at Gateshead. The one place she loathed as a child, but then didn’t seem to mind. This was also the room that she saw a ghost and she was terrified, but now she is not even scared at all. Throughout the book Jane has a lot of strength and has discipline herself well into adulthood. She has been able to go on with her life and even forgive her aunt who once was cruel to her. Now this Mother is there to help Jane take that leap she needs to and that is to leave Mr.Rochester because Jane herself has a hard time doing it.
Nivele I wanted to comment on how you said Mr.Rochester in the dream is going away farther and father, but in reality it is Jane who is going farther away. Mr.Rochester is the one who pushed Jane away. I mean regardless of the time if any girl found out that the guy their about to married is actually already married and has his current girlfriend locked up in a room just because she is crazy, I’d be pissed too. I mean I have to give credit to Jane throughout the whole time I’m surprised that she never once flipped out about the whole situation. I think at that moment she finally realized the type of person Mr.Rochester is and saw the man he truly is.
She realized that she didn’t fall in love with the man she thought she did. I think Mr. Rochester does care for Jane, but I think if Jane went through with the marriage she would probably end up somewhat like Mrs. Rochester. Her mother had a mental illness too, but people don’t start going crazy just randomly one day. The way he tells the story, he wants Jane to feel pity for him, but pity that she will still take him back. So she can be that girl to make him all better and be his “angel”. He must have done certain things that must have gotten Mrs. Rochester angry at him. I personally think that Mr. Rochester is just acting again and just trying to feel that control he once had over her. He realizes that he is loosing her and trying to do everything in his power to get her back. I mean come on! The guy even threatens her with violence! He is that desperate. I know a lot of people feel bad for him, but I do and I don’t. I do because the burden he has to live with his wife. The way she is and the way she acts, I mean it’s hard, but also doesn’t mean it gives him the right to become a lady’s man. He knew what he was wrong, but he gave into temptation. At any moment he could have stopped himself and realized he was wrong. Since these chapters I now have a strong dislike for Mr. Rochester. Feels like I am watching a soap opera.
I'd like to comment on Jane's dreams. Dreaming of children is suppose to be a bad sign. As Jane dreams of them they both involve her trying to see Rochester. THe first time she could not see Rochester but she "strained every nerve to overtake [him]"(303), however as she tried to calm the "feeble child" (303)that "wailed piteously" (303) he seemed "farther and farther" away. The dream seems to show that Rochester is just out of her reach and that she has other burdens to worry about other than her marriage to Rochester. The child almost represents the baggage that Rochester comes with and she will have to take that on once they are married. The second dreamn the child "rolled from [her] knee" (305) as she "bent forward to take a last look" (305) at Rochester. The ledge that she is standing on gives away almost as if the burden that Jane will take on is to heavy for her to bear and that she will not being able to keep control and she herself will crumble. Of course Mr. Rochester's manner is to dismiss all of this as just "mental terrors". And once again he blames the ripping of the veil, and the "discolored face" (306) on Grace Poole once again. And he refuses to tell Jane what the real story is behind it. I feel as though he is trying to trap Jane. Why else would he tell her she had to wait a "year and a day" until he reveals the turth? Thats why I beleive that the dreams defiently represent the burden that Rochester bares that he is going to pass offf to Jane and she wont be able to hold them steady.
Also thought that that song that they sang together was some what weird. It involved
"I dangered dared; I hinderance scorned:
I omens did defy;
Whatever menanced, harassed, warned,
I passed impetious by"(292)
I really think that this passage alone shows that this marriage is failed for doom. I think Jane is singing and for her to say that I think that deep down even she knows that she is taking a big risk by marrying this mysterious man.
Regarding Courtney’s comment of how “ice glazed the ripe apples, drifts crushed the blowing roses,” (319) it isn’t clear whether or not Jane and Mr. Rochester are completely gone, but with the freezing of the apples, I assumed it meant the temporary halting of sinning; after all, ice eventually melts. However, with the added affect of the crushed blowing roses, it makes me think that perhaps Jane’s love of Mr. Rochester has ended, but with the new addition of St. John (pronounced Sinjin, I believe?) it’s not clear what his intentions are quite yet.
Also, in response to Victor’s comment, I hadn’t noticed either that the mention of God was (probably) one of the first during her time at Thornfield. If such is the case, then perhaps it can be taken as Mr. Rochester leading her astray from her faith, whereas before when she was with Helen (aka Christ) and Ms. Temple (aka, the temple in which helped focus her perhaps?) she was constantly aware of religion and it’s major influence on her.
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TMLombard, I don’t think Bronte intended for Mr. Rochester to be viewed simply as a “jerk” or with sympathy…she wanted us to start viewing him as very suspicious, and then understand why he was acting the way he was. I think this book has quite a few characters who end up contradicting the greater view that people have of them…Grace Poole was viewed as this crazy woman, but then as the novel progressed, we understood that she wasn’t crazy after all, but rather was taking care of a patient…Mr. Rochester is viewed as a man who has secrets, which he does, but at the start of the novel, his secrets were viewed as something evil that he had done, when in reality, we realize that he is just an unlucky guy who was taken advantage of by his family…he is lost in life, especially when it comes to love…I feel like a lot of unfair things have happened to him. Bronte doing this could possibly send out a message to the readers about the society they live in...they shouldn’t judge people until they understand where they are coming from…just some thoughts that are going through my head.
Nivele, about your comment: “I think she was born with a mental illness but that Mr. Rochester's actions might have progressed that illness,” I think that (now I’m just putting ideas out there) maybe Bertha was good at keeping her behavior hidden, because they didn’t really spend much time with one another. However, once they came to living with one another, it did not matter if she could turn her behavior completely off for 2 or 3 hours, because they would be with one another all day, so at one point, she would just set off and he would see.
Thanks for the info on schizophrenia Nivele. Yes, it is lots of fun to come up with different ideas and possibilities of what could have happened or will happen…there is no good or bad idea, they all help further thoughts and bring out different ideas.
Did anyone else notice that Jane is praying to Dod now? and very frequently during the day of the wedding? After she finds out about Bertha and when she talks to Rochester again before she leaves, she prays to God to help her. I guess everyone does believe in God when they're in the "foxhole" or some saying like that. This goes back to the previous blogs where most of us agreed that Jane did not really believe in God, where she seemed to be a lot less vulnerable than now, discovering a secret like this on the day of her wedding, who wouldn't be vulnerable? This is why I think she just took off. I agree that leaving would be just like something Rochester would do, but she felt that's what she need needed to do.
I predict that her uncle, John Eyre has something up his sleeve to help Jane somehow, since he sent for the wedding to be stopped, it's probably not the only thing he will be doing for her.
So why would Jane give a fake name? And then confess to Hannah, who was the one who didn't let her in, her true identity, but lie to the people that took her in?
This is COMPLETELY random, but when I read this book, I picture Jane Eyre looking like Anne Hathaway in that movie about Jane Austen, that's not really about her and more about Pride and Prejudice. Sorry to throw you guys off, but I just HAD to say that. =]
Now I understand Grace Poole finally! I must admit though Rochester is even more twisted than I thought. I also dont understand why he can't just divorce Bertha, especially cause she has gone completely crazy.
However even in this situation Rochester is still very snobby and rude. He says as he is about to reveal Bertha that
"You shall see what sort of a being I was cheated into espousing, and judge whether or not I had a right to break the compact, and seek some sympathy with something atleast human."(315). Here Mr. Rochester seems like he is making excuses for his behavoir basically saying that nobody should be mad at him becasue he was wronged in the first place and he was trying to make up for it. I think this is just another example of his immaturity. Rochester doesnt seem to ever want to deal with his problems that are at hand. Bronte here tries to expose the man at this time as nothing but a liar who can make excuses and not have to suffer the consequences. During this time period men were allowed to get away with alot becasue that they were men. Bronte exposes this ignorance and arrogance by having Rochester pretend as though the rules do not apply to him, because he was dealt a bad hand to begin with.
Unlike most everyone else, I do not pity Mr. Rochester, but I think that he is a jerk. Yeah, he was mislead and taken advatage of by his family, but he was going to marry Jane without telling her that he had another wife locked up inside the house. Also, when Jane decides to leave and sees Mr. Rochester for the last time he seems to not understand the depth of the issues that Jane has with him.
"So you shun me? you shut yourself up and grieve alone! i would rather you had come and unbraided me with vehemence. You are passionate: I expected a scene of some kind. I was prepared for the hot rain of tears; only I wanted them to be shed on my breast: now a sensless floor has recieved them, or your drenched hankerchief. But I err: you have not wept at all! I see a white cheek and a faded eye but no trace of tears."
I think that Mr. Rochester is mostly upset that Jane does not seem as upset as he wanted her to be about this whole situation. He wanted her to be needy of him and to cry on his shoulder. This would be another way that he would contain the power in their relationship (like we discussed in class). I may be a pessimist on the subject of this love, but I do not think that Mr. Rochester is genuine in his apology to Jane and that he is most upset that he plan did not work through the way that he wanted.
One thing that I noticed was Jane's strength through this hardship. She did not run back to Mr. Rochester when he apologized which is probably what she wanted to do.
We talked in class on how Jane took a longer time to express her feelings in this relationship, and after discovering Mr. Rochester's secret, her walls are coming back up when she says to him on page 327 "I do love you, more than ever: but I must now show or indulge the feeling; and this is the last time I must express it."
It would be easy for Jane to run back to Mr. Rochester after his mistake because he has been the only person that she had felt this kind of love from, and she even goes to question if anyone other than Rochester will ever love her again, but the strength in her character is shown when she leaves the man she loves.
oh and by the way, on my last blog the quote I used is on page 321.
As we discussed in class, Mr. Rochester has this seeming thirst for power. After Mr. Rochester’s proposal, he appears to belittle Jane more often. Despite, Jane’s request to continued to be treated as a governess, he acts more condescendingly towards Jane than before.
“he had no such honeyed terms such as ‘love’ and ‘darling’ on his lips: the best words at my service were ‘provoking puppet,’ ‘malicious elf,’ ‘sprite,’ ‘changeling,’…for a kiss on the cheek, a severe tweak of the ear. It was all right: at present I decidedly preferred these fierce favours to anything more tender.” (295)
Here, Bronte displays the transition from Mr. Rochester being affectionate to patronizing. He treats her like a little girl, especially the part where Jane says he “tweaks her ear”. This image reminds me of how teachers would pull childrens’ ears if they did something bad, although the situations are different, I would say this action is something done only to a child. I think the source of this is how Jane tries to fight Mr. Rochester’s attempts to make himself higher than her by taking care of her. He shows off his wealth by offering to put a “diamond chain around her neck, and a circlet on her forehead,” (278), which Jane declines and refuses his attempts to spoil her.
Another part I found interesting was when Jane waits for Mr. Rochester to come home, and she runs to him in the rain. This event correlates to when Jane and Mr. Rochester first meet, and he falls off his horse and Jane helps him. However, in this scene, Mr. Rochester pulls up Jane onto his horse. I think this scene represents a shift in power and now Mr. Rochester has power over Jane.
“‘you can’t do without me, that is evidence. Step on my boot-toe; give me both hands: mount!’ I obeyed: joy made me agile: I sprang up before him.” (299)
The evidence of her submissiveness is how she says she obeys. This scene seems to foreshadow that Jane will a develop a sense of dependence on Mr. Rochester. The weather, rain and wind, seems to represent a change, perhaps washing off or extinguishing Jane’s fire?
Also, why does Mr. Rochester call Jane, Janet?
Ok...so far a lot of the comments have mentioned Rochester and his need for power. Even Mrs. Fairfax notices, telling Jane that she, "always noticed that you were a sort of pet of his" (285). After he proposes Rochester becomes more patronizing toward Jane and like Jezebelle Darling said, "Despite, Jane’s request to continue to be treated as a governess, he acts more condescendingly towards Jane than before".
What is curious is that Jane would rather be treated as a governess than as Rochester's fiance. She appears to shy away from his attempts to lavish her with jewelry and clothes, instead to put herself down saying, "Don't addressme as if I were a beauty; I am your plain, Quakerish governess" (278). It suggests, in my opinion, that Jane struggles between her need to be loved, an emotion not always expressed to her, and her want for independence.
Any thoughts?
Wow, the secrets finally out... took a while.
It seems like a lot of people either are angry at Rochester for being previously married or feel pity for his current circumstances (or some combination of the two). Personally, I felt more pity than anger at the revelation of his story. According to the way Rochester presents the events that led up to his first marriage, he was unaware of his wife's family and background. He was thrust into the relationship by his father and brother and, in deciding to house her at Thornfield, I think Rochester is only protecting his wife. Though I agree that describing her as a "hyena" is anything but appropriate, for the time period keeping her in his house was far better than the only other option: sending her to an asylum. Rochester definetly shows a great disconnect from Bertha, and not only does he not consider her his wife, he doesn't consider her a person... which could be symbolic of how a man of his time would view his wife (or women in general). Rochester does not see Bertha as a human being, and it is this treatment that Jane fears. As we have seen throughout the novel, Jane always tries to keep her independence and spirit, and she wanted, on some level, to be spared from marriage because of this. This belief is strengthened after she sees that a woman that married Rochester lost her mind (symbolic of losing ones ability to think for oneself?) and becomes caged. We have seen Jane described as a "bird" throughout, and one place she doesn't want to be is in a cage.
Also, back to the topic of pity, I do not believe Rochester made Bertha mad, like some people have suggested; I think it was the circumstances. Like Jane might have been, Bertha was put in a setting that she could not handle (that finally caused her to snap I believe). It is interesting that Jane is spared the fate of being married by the unlikely circumstances, but I am still curious about the symbolism of the chestnut tree splitting in half after being struck by lightning. Does this symbolize Jane's relationship with Rochester splitting in half and the two going their separate ways? In that case, the lightning strike would be the news that Rochester is already married, and, like a tree split in two, the separation is permanent.
So, will we ever see Rochester again?
One thing that is interesting about Bertha is that when she attacks, she goes for the throat. I think that she tries to take away her victim's power. Her attacks remind me of vampires, who bite their victims, leaving them and lifeless mess. The throat could symbolize voice. Perhaps, Bertha bites Mr. Rochester's neck, when we first encounter her, to allude that he will lose his power over Jane or he stops acting arrogant towards her. Also, I read that the throat can symbolize between equality of high and low (head and stomach). By attacking the throat, Bertha foreshadows conflict between Jane and Mr. Rochester, both representations of the contrasting classes.
First, in response to a comment made by Analu, I feel as though because Jane remains cool and calm throughout the event, she is displaying just how much she loves him, which I guess is opposite of your opinion. I feel as though Jane loved Mr Rochester so unbeleivably much but she just knew this situation was not meant to be because of his situation and instead of crying and hating him, she accepts it and wants to leave. I feel as though her wanting to leave emphasizes her love further, because she knows she loves him and can't be with him, so she would rather not be in the face of tempatation for her life.
Somthing I would like to mention in regard to a conversation Victor and Malisa have been having is the sudden interest in God Jane seems to have after this whole shinanagan. I feel as though this beleif in God seems to have arisen from her friend Helen Burns. Helen not only teaches Jane about God and self-righteousness, bu she also teaches Jane about endurance and accepting what you can't have. When Jane comes across "a remembrance of God" (320), I feel as though Helen Burns' character has almost revealed herself in Jane. I guess we will have to wait and see if more arises from this.
I found the whole scene in which Rochester's first wife Bertha is revealed to be very symbolic. I found his reasoning of her imprisonment to be very flawed and I would have to agree with everyone else that perhaps it was actually Rochester's imprisonment that led Bertha to be so violent and mad. Then what was his true reason for imprisoning her then. I though that it might of been the fact that she was creole and his shame and fear of her (which could symbolize the oppression of different races at that time) led to her being locked up. I found it interesting how she was locked in the attic and not in the basement or in some secret room in the house which could be a metaphor for Rochester imprisoning the mind (head, the top) of Bertha and making her into what she is at the present.
It's very interesting how Jane describes Bertha as some foreign animal that "was covered with clothing, and a quantity of dark, grizzled hair, wild as a mane, hid its head and face", especially since I feel like Bertha is somehow a mirror to Jane. Perhaps Bertha also symbolizes Jane's frustration and fear of the marriage as she, although happy at first, has nightmares that allude to her fear in marrying Rochester. Bertha could also be a physical manifestation of Jane's fears of marriage as she tears the veil Rochester gave Jane in two.
Something else I would like to add, is the like Nivele, I also am very skeptical of Rochester's story of Bertha's madness. I understand it is completely possible for her madness to become worse with age and whatnot, but going along with what Tainara said, Rochester must have felt like he had a lack of power in the relationship if he could not be with a predictable, stable wife, and so perhaps he soughtout more controllable women?
Going along with this I find it very interesting how much the characters true personalities come out here. Jane's faith in God, seems to greatly contrast Rochester's violence. I quite understand why Rochester is acting the way he is, and to those who may not understand just how much he loves Jane... the way he describes her seems to really resemble the "imprinting" phenomenon the occurs with the werewolves in Twilight. I feel as though Rochester describes Jane to be all that he can now gravitate towards, and in Twilight when a werewolf imprinted on a person, that person became their only focus, their center of gravity. I guess you could really connect what Rochester is saying to any love story, but I really saw a connection there. In any case why do you feel as though Rochester'sviolent nature has sudden emrged itself now? If he really loved Jane, don't you think he would rather not scare her with violence? It seems as though this is another final display of powerthat he has over Jane, because no other pwer has worked to keep her with him.
Finally one last comment that I can't stop thinking about... rochester kept mentioning how he was dirty and polutted and whatnot, but then why would he want to marry Jane and make her apart of that? Does he feel like she can cleanse him with her purity? Well sorry Rochester...it's too late for that!
As for the plot twist, I KNEW IT WASN'T GRACE POOLE. Ha ha, yes. I felt like there had to be a plot twist to fit the character of this book and there had really been one, excluding Rochester as a gipsy. Plus, I feel like putting all the blame on Grace was just a bit too easy; there had to be more... I also faintly remember the mentioning of a scarlet letter in the book.
As for the question of whether to pity Rochester or be angry with him, I really don't know. I could see why he should be pitied, since his family obviously took advantage of him and he was forced to take care of a women he "didn't love." But then again, suck it up. It seems really selfish of him to keep it a secret from Jane especially when he's getting married to her and would only tell her after they were married a year and one day. Also he seems to be pushing the marriage upon Jane, since he ignores Jane's distress about the whole situation.
A lot of you have already talked about Bertha and Rochester's "secrets" so I was wondering more on the symbolism of Jane's departing from Thornfield, and what it means to her and the story. We've always known that Jane sticks up for her ideas and won't do something if she doesn't think it's right (in responding to Rochester's request, in fighting back with her aunt etc), which I always had in the back of my mind. However, she was in love, no? She said that her home would be wherever he was. So it is no doubt I was a bit surprised by this quote: "I care for myself. The more solitary, the more friendless, the more unsustained I am, the more I will respect myself. I will keep the law given by God; sanctioned by man. I will hold to the principles received by me when I was sane, and not mad—as I am now. Laws and principles are not for the times when there is no temptation . . . They have a worth—so I have always believed; and if I cannot believe it now, it is because I am insane—quite insane: with my veins running fire, and my heart beating faster than I can count its throbs.”
The reason why I am so surprised is because for the first time, Jane puts logic and reason over her passionate feelings! I mean, she was in LOVE with a guy and she still turned him down, always thinking in the back of her mind everything that she would be compromising, like the idea that she has to be taken care of, or "dressed up" with jewels and dresses etc.
In this case, I think that selfishness was completely justifiable, as by doing so, she sticks up for herself and doesn't change the morals and values she once had.
Ok, now to respond to some people.
First to Lilly, I did notice Jane's increased mention of God. It may very well be the reason that you stated; everyone goes to God when he/she is in trouble. But also, I was thinking that in the past few chapters she's changed a bit, almost thinking of Helen, and that brought along the "religious-ness." By leaving Thordfield, she chooses reason over passion, something Helen was all about at Lowood. Also, a Bible scripture says that “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.”- Jeremiah 17:9. That's quite a powerful saying and it seems like Jane took that into account for once. Helen's influence is back!!!
And to Dario's question about Rochester coming back. I mean, there's a good 150 pages left and I don't think Jane makes a life with her uncle...
Well, first off, I want to open my discussion to the beginning of Chapter 24, the language in my opinion was ver clear, in regard to the last class discussion relating to Mr. Rochester's degrading language as well as his power issue. One scene that stayed with me was when he spoke of showering Jane with jewelry, Mr.Rochester claimed that he himself will put the diamond chain around her neck.(278)First,after I read this the line uses interesting word choice which had me focus on the word "chain" which shared the connotations of oppression, captivity and tyranny. For me,the image of a diamond chain creates the conflict between a tool of captivity such as a chain and a beautiful gift like a diamond.
Another example that comes to mind is one scene wherein Mrs.Fairfax was speaking with Jane concerning Richard when she describes the realtionship between them is described to be one resembling a man and his dog when she notices that "Jane was sort of his pet"(285)which affirms the issue of the power struggle between Jane and Richard to be in Mr.Rochester's favor.
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First of all, wow.
Second, I'd like to respond to Lilly and Tainaira's comments about her having a mental illness, or Rochester cheated on her. I'm not sure if Rochester would have married her in the first place had she been mentally ill. And wasn't mental illness looked down upon in Victorian times? I remember we discussed in class one time that social ways were backwards in that time, and that people would often find entertainment in visiting the asylum. My question is, how she kept it in so long that he would believe she was stable at all. He described her as "pure, wise, modest", How would a woman taking after a drunkard and madwoman be able to hide that side of her? I really believe that Rochester must have done something that drove her off the edge.
Also, anyone else notice the inferences on fire and elements of fire?
At the end of chapter 23, "the orchard had been struck by lightning". Lightning and thunder are elements related to fire, and heat, and usually symbolizes something violent, and sudden. The fact that Bertha lunges at him violently in chapter 26, when they first see her is not only just because she's crazy and violent, but she could in some ways symbolize thunder and lightening that eventually drives Rochester and Jane apart.
Also, in chapter 26, right when Briggs first says, "Mr. Rochester has a wife now living", Jane trembles inside and writes, "My nerves vibrated to those low-spoken words as they had never vibrated to thunder--my blood felt their subtle violence as it had never felt frost or fire." It's almost as if the words are like the lightening itself that struck the chestnut tree and split it. So, in turn, like Malisa said, Jane is going to be the part of the tree that "splits away".
Ha-ha Katie, I figured that too... but I meant more symbolically that the two would never have a relationship again.
To comment on Paul's post, I also found it a bit strange that Rochester would specify to tell Jane about his secrets in a year and a day... As we established, Rochester has a need to feel powerful and fears rejection. In that way, he believes his secrets are too much to reveal to anyone because, as we have seen, they can ruin his vision of happiness if they are revealed to the public. He probably wanted to get to know Jane and believe he could trust her before telling her about his previous marriage... and I guess that takes a year and a day.
Also, I don't know if I would say that Rochester was pushing the wedding onto Jane. Jane, as we saw, was excited for the marriage at first and only after some time did she begin to doubt her choice.
On a final note, Angela's comment was very interesting. I had never actually considered the significance of the position of Bertha's attack on Rochester. Perhaps, as you said, the attack on the throat symbolizes her attack on gender roles and social class. However, I was thinking that it could also symbolize that perhaps Bertha was trying to bring Rochester down to her level. He took away her voice and she attempts to take away his.
So... worst wedding EVER.
I think that Rochester's hunger for power and Bertha's insanity go hand in hand. His lies, schemes, and mistresses are most likely what drove Bertha to insanity. I believe that Bertha was a woman like Jane once. A woman who loved the freedom she had, and didn't like being held down. She was described as a "party girl" of sorts, promiscuous and such by Mr. Rochester. He is most likely over exaggerating this aspect of her personality, and he was the one who probably shut her away from the wrld which drove her to become what she is now.
In previous conversations with Jane, Rochester has often showed guilt and regret about his past. He is a liar and power-thirsty, but he feels guilty about things that he has done. This guilt was probably the only reason why he hired Grace in the first place. He thought that this would justify the fact that he took a free-spirited woman from an easy-going enviroment, and inflicted Victorian marriage laws upon her with a heavy hand.
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