ok i guess ill be the first one to comment. so i think the book is good is just i have a hard time understanding some of the words because the way it is translated.
As i read the book i noticed that he uses alot of Greek mythlogy of monsters such as the three headed dog,the guy who pushes the ferry, and Dante mentions Medusa. I also realized that Dante mentions real people in history such as Juluis Ceasar and those who killed him. HE also mentions people who were religious figures, i can't remember all there names, but did the author who wrote this book really know them? Was this his opinion of them when they died they would go to Hell? Or is he just adding it for the heck of it?
Hi everyone, I hope everyone is enjoying the poem/book so far! I just wanted to begin the discussion with first establishing some rules about the posts that I think will be beneficial. Since we have different translations of the poem, I was thinking that citing the Canto and line number will be beneficial, instead of page numbers. Other than that, I think that everything else should probably remain the same. Let's begin!
Ah, Ash you beat me to the first post by 2 minutes... darn, almost had it.
Moving on, to comment on your question, it is definitely true that Dante uses actual people throughout history to reside in the different layers of hell. While Dante probably knew very few of these people (maybe even none of them) due to the time periods in which they lived, I wouldn't say he uses them "for the heck of it." He uses different Saints, and other historical figures, to represent the sins that each layer of Hell (or the Inferno) and show the punishments for each sin. You have to think of the poem in the context (time and place) that it was written. In the society Dante wrote The Divine Comedy in, a larger amount of the public knew about the religious and historic figures he referred to, more so than in today’s society. Thus, Dante refers to these people because they were known and their characters added detail to Dante’s story.
I’m only on Canto Tre (3) right now so I have not encountered as many characters as you, but I have come across some. I would like to discuss Dante’s guide through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven; Virgil. Dante, who is both the author and speaker, claims that he looks up to Virgil and that Virgil has most effected his work. Virgil states in the first Canto that he is being kept away from the glory of God because he worshiped false gods. Virgil and Dante also discuss Virgil’s great epic poems that inspired the style of Dante’s The Divine Comedy. I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with Virgil’s poetry or writing in general, and if anyone could comment on it. I personally have not read any of his work, but now I am interested in doing so.
Also, something that just struck me, Mrs. Leuzzi told us last year that Dante's Inferno is considered a political commentary. Many of the people Dante involves in the layers of hell have political connections and there certainly is a claim when you put a political figure in hell (raining fiery ashes- the 7th layer of Hell I believe -don't portray people in the best light). Putting Saints in Hell doesn't portray the church in a good light either... I haven't come across any political figures (that I know of) yet but I'm sure we will in the coming canti, so keep your eyes open!
Dario I wanted to comment on your last comment on how it would make a lot of sense if this was a political commentary because like you said during the time this book was written wasn't the church a little corrupt? And when i mean corrupt i meant alot because it was and since the church had alot of control over things he couldn't really say out loud hey the way you guys run this is screwed up! because he'd get in trouble and probably put to death. I didn't think about that. good point =]
Wow I think I'm going to have to break this Ashley-Dario conversation, haha. Anyway, about the political commentary thing, I think it's definitely a big part of this work. Although the people Dante is talking about may seem a bit unfamiliar to us, it's just like Animal Farm, where you could imply that all of the animals were parallel to some real person. And in thinking about why Dante did this, I thought of his own opinions of certain actions, especially with religion. Back then there was still a struggle between religion and the state (which, I mean, there always will be). And so if Dante were writing today, he'd probably put some pastor that was convicted of sexual child abuse (which for some reason hit an all-time high a couple of years ago). Or perhaps he'd bring up the fact that pastors are letting gays get married in a traditionally catholic church, where the principles of the Bible are not compromised for man. This reminds me of my sophomore year with Ms. Clapp. In Charles Dickens's time, it was extremely racy to talk about sex and things like that so authors would use symbols and other devices to get the point across to the adults while leaving the kids a bit clueless (as stories like A Tale of Two Cities were published serially, and often read for the family at the kitchen table).
Dario, I will try to reference as best as I can, but I still do not think that our lines will be the same. The original first canto is 130 lines long but my translation is only 109... so let me know if your books work the same way.
Anyway... political references... in lines 78-87 where "born between feltro and feltro" comes up. This is referring to the identity of the Hound. Translated literally, feltro is felt, which could allude to a member of the clergy since their robes or cloaks (whatever you call them) were made of felt.
In looking up a bunch of names that come up in the canti, I found that a bunch of them appear in Virgil's Aeneid . So Dario, if you're going to read one of Virgil's books, read that one :) .
In Canto II line 81, Rachel reminded me of the Rachel in the Bible where Jacob (her suitor you can say) was only allowed to marry her after marrying her older sister, Leah.
Gosh, there are sooo many allusions to places and things, books, peopls, Bible happenings. This books is a bit difficult. I heard Dante is like Italy's Shakespeare. But I'm sure we're in for a good read. How about we quickly characterize each layer of hell so we don't get lost ourselves?
ok so canto 11 im a little lost because there are nother 3 circles, but these ones people do not suffer. They must have either talked blasphamy about God, their neighbor, and if im right not treat themselves right either, but then in canto 12 it goes to say that the centaur is the tormentor of those who have committed violence against their neighbor. There is way too many levels of Hell. I think Katie is right we should like summarize what each level is so that way we don't get confused.
Also to add what Katie was talking about. In canto 11 he talks about cardinals which im not sure what that is, but I know they are part of the Catholic church and it mentions sodomy and they try to have a Godhead in their heart. I know people have different translation, but I didn't get the part it said Godhead.
I wanted to point in that canto also that Dante and Virgil have this conversation about these people in that circle they start talking about God and also Nature. They talk about Nature as a female, but also mentions witchcraft and the city of where Aristole was born. They speak of Nature and God has two different paths for people. Nature is the path that is spoken as negative and those who follow "her" are not connected to God and God does not care for them. Then those who follow God's path are of course with God. Which I find ironic because God created nature, in the beginning of Bible is says how God created everything, but here Nature is seen as almost as a seductress. Then when the speaker speaks of the philosphers and mentions of where Aristole was born he is almost damning them for following a different path and following in Nature which I take is witchcraft and for questioning God. My book is an older version and kinda hard to read, so I hope I'm interperting this right.
Before moving way into the story, I think we missed a few distinctions that the first canto presented to us in terms of where we're going in the story, literally and figuratively.
As you've all noticed, the Inferno is comprised of 34 canti, while Purgatory and Heavean are all 33 canti each. The first canto seems to serve like a prologue, (like Shakespeare does in a lot of his plays). Towards the end of the canto, he says that they would "hear cries of despair" telling us that we were in hell (91). Next, we would "see those souls who are content/ to dwell in fire because they hope some day/ to join the blessed" which happens in Purgatory (94-6). And finally, we will enter "His kingdom, His city, His seat of awe," where the happy people live, heaven (103). Although Dante tells us where we're going, we really don't know what's going to happen.
Secondly, I'd like to point out the importance of the very first lines of the Divine Comedy. It seems so important that Ms. Leuzzi made us memorize the first few lines for Italian class last year. It reads, "Midway on our life's journey, I found myself/ In dark woods, the right road lost" (1-2). Journey = Quest anyone? Let's think How to Read Literature Like a Professor... Quester: Dante Fitting it into the rest seems confusing as all we know is that he's trying to get away from danger. Right in those first lines, there is a contrast between the dark woods and the right road. Because there is obviously a lot of religion involved in this book, that probably shows one of Dante's main struggles throughout his journey, looking for good or God in a bad or sinful world.
In the end, it will be pretty easy to apply his lessons learned to a global scale, as in his first sentance, he uses "our" suggesting that it really applies to humans in general, that we all struggle with the same things.
Like Dario and Ashley both mentioned earlier, I think that the people and things Dante puts into the inferno are symbolic of meanings. Ashley brought up the mythological creatures and one of them is Plutus, the god of wealth, who is found at the entrance of the fourth circle of hell in Canto VI (6). Not only does Dante use mythology, but he also puts pagan gods in there as well, as I’ve mentioned, they were referenced in the Aeineid. Again in Canto VI, Ciacco asks Dante to “recall [his] memory there to the human world” (80) but as a Christian teaching, the dead cannot speak or communicate with people who are alive. So it is apparent that Dante has other religions in mind while writing the Inferno. But because the idea of hell is a catholic teaching, he puts Christianity at a level above the other religions mentioned, having them put strategically in Hell.
Something kind of funny but still sad about Canto VI: the “putrid odor” (11) is from the Gluttons’ waste. Their punishment in Hell is the overabundance of that pleasure which ends up disgusting them more. Well, that’s what I thought anyway. It’s a pretty good punishment too.
Because we are in Hell, many of the people there are lamenting “the second death they must abide” (I 93). (Is it ok to cite like that? The first roman numeral is the canto, and the numerical number is the line?) I’m not sure if any of you know what the second death is, but yes, it has to do with Christianity. So in life, let’s say you die before Judgment Day. Technically to be “judged” you’ll be “alive” so to speak when God will judge your actions, so you will be resurrected to life. However, if God chooses to kill you then you’re pretty much done. No one escapes the second death, which, for those people in the deep layers of hell, is pretty scary. You have a chance anywhere else except there.
There is just way too much to talk about to satisfy me as this is such a complex book, but I’ll try. I pose a question: Virgil, is he helping out Dante just because his love, Beatrice, told him to? What’s the deal with that?
To answer Katie's question, I thought that Beatrice was very persuasive, but that led me to ask... Did Satin control Hell? If he did, then why would he allow Virgil to leave temporarily? Beatrice was the one to talk to Virgil, not God who is all powerful.
And also, wouldn’t the Ante-Inferno be like purgatory? I thought this because those in purgatory aren’t allowed in Heaven or Hell, too.
Actually, now that i think about it, purgatory was a place where souls stay, but they can eventually go to Heaven. Could they go to Hell instead, or would they have to just stay in purgatory.
Since I agree that we should all understand what each circle is, I started a list. (please fix or add)
1st Limbo – souls that weren’t baptized and died before Christianity 2nd souls of the Lustful 3rd souls of the Gluttonous 4th souls of the Prodigals 5th souls of the Wrathful 6th soulds of the Sullen 7th Lower Hell
I think that the reason Jesus only brought some souls, like Noah and Moses into Heaven from Limbo because they were the ones to believe in one god at that time, even though Christianity wasn’t established yet. The souls that stayed in Limbo, like Virgil, Homor, Aristotle, Pluto, they were all Greeks, who believed in the gods and goddesses. I find it ironic that Hell was described just like it was to the Greeks. For example, the ferry transporting the souls across the river, and the 3 headed dog, Ceberus, was from Greek mythology.
I think I might be in the first circle of Hell, because I don't really much faith... =x Or I might be in the fifth because I was told that I'm angry a lot. 0=]
I think that's a pretty accurate list. To the reason that supposedly "God" only brought up Moses and Noah, that's pretty obvious that it's your belief and Dante's. I'm sure that the Greeks are writing about how Dante is in Hell and that most Greeks are in Heaven. And the reason why Hell was described similarly to the Greeks is because Dante added a bunch of religions into this (see above post) to make it more universal.
As to you going to hell, haha, I doubt it. I don't know why so many people actually believe in Hell. A lot of Bibles translate the words Sheol and Hades to mean hell, but they really just mean grave. Also, if Hell really existed, then the Bible says that Jesus went to Hell (literally, he went to Hades or Sheol, one of them, which just means the grave. He died and went there). Also, if God is all loving and merciful and all that stuff, why would he torment people? In the Bible it talks about those burning in the lake of sulphur or something like that but I thought it was those that didn't survive the second death, where Satan would be sent along with his followers. Anyway, let's not get off topic.
In characterizing Dante in about the first 5 canti, he definitely seems like a coward. “Cowardice grips your spirit” (II 37) says Virgil of Dante. He is afraid of encountering all of these horrible things. But I just wanted to point out a simile that Dante uses: “As flowers bent and shrunken by night at dawn/ unfold and straighten on their stems, to wake/ brightened by sunlight, so I grew strong again-” (II 104-6). Like one of those flowers that opens again on the next day, Dante rejuvenated himself and became courageous to be strong again.
Going on with my point in my previous post about Dante’s journey, the author Dante quotes a passage in the Bible about this “Beware how you come in and whom you trust/ Don’t be deceived because the gate is wide” (V 18-9). Jesus said this when warning his followers of how to act in the future. He mentioned that wide was the gate that led to destruction but narrow was the path that led to everlasting life. This was someone in hell warning Dante, so even in the beginning, he has in his mind ideas about paths to choose in his journey.
“Within that bog, all naked and muddy- with looks/ of fury, striking each other” (VII 97-8). Talk about a muddy baptism. These people in the 4th ring are literally getting changed into what I think may be even worse people.
And I think that the Alexander from the 12th canto is Alexander the Great!
So weird enough, today as I was praying with my family… -_- … We read a part of the Gospel of Judgment Day. That made me think of the second death for the souls already in Hell, how he will separate the good (on his right side) from the bad (on his left side) in the gospel of Matthew.
And to what Dario and Ashley said about the corruption of the church. When has the church not been corrupted? No offense to anyone, I’m Catholic, myself. It just seems like Christianity is corrupted a lot. For example, the when church officials were selling indulgences way back then, and the Crusades, and then the molestation. I agree that it was taboo to write about the corruption of religion, since the religion probably controlled the state at the time, leading into excommunication/exile.
I looked though The Divine Comedy: Tracing God’s Works and it says that he was in an arranged marriage with Gemma Donati and Beatrice was married to someone else and died shortly after. He uses Beatrice instead of his wife in his book/poems because it was what he wanted to experience.
To touch back on the political topic of Dante's Inferno... Dante makes his views clear in this piece of work. On his journey with Virgil he recognizes Pope Celestine V. Seeing the Pope not in Heaven was probably the reason for the censorship of the Divine Comedy. Looking up who this pope was it turns out that Pope Celestin V became pope in 1294 and lived a "saintly life". However, he was convinced by a man named Boniface VIII that no man can escape being damned. This led Celestin to withdraw papacy which Boniface then directly replaced the pope. This event represents, for Dante, the worst corruptions of the church seeing as to why he would "bump" into Pope CElestin during his travels.
Going to a topic brought up to Katie :" I don't know why so many people actually believe in Hell. A lot of Bibles translate the words Sheol and Hades to mean hell, but they really just mean grave." Well, the way I think about it, the Bible as we know of it today is not the full book. In fact, pieces of the Bible were deliberately left out mainly because whoever at power at the time could do so. So, if Hell was really supposed to mean grave or actually Hell, it was up to a king long ago who decided that he preferred that story over another.
I would most definately have to agree that this work is dense with allusions. So much so that at times I can not even understand what is happening before i research and then reread. His allusions are widely ranged, from greek mythology, to religion, to political figures, to historical figures... his guide is Virgil the great poet himself to start out with. (I think this should satisfy one post)
Now, what I would like to attempt to dive into is what does all this mean? At the very beginning he encounters three beasts, which in my translation are titled, "The LEopard of MAlice and Fraud, The Lion of Violence and Ambition, and The She-Wolf of Incontinence". I am looking at these as the human sins manifested in a crazed beast form which makes perfect sense. In the first canto the she wolf "tracks down all, kills all, and knows no glut, but feeding, she grows hungrier than she was" (92-93). Just like sin that tracks down everyone meaning everyone is affected, and how sin feeds and grows until it kills. Dante makes his views clear throughout "The Inferno". What has me stumped in the beginning is why does Dante choose Virgil? In The Dark Wood of Error where he first meets Virgil, Dante proclaims his admiration for the Poet and I am assuming that Allighieri is portraying himself as the one narrating through the journey. Virgil was supposedly a great influence on Dante's writing style during his life so having Virgil as a guide could be seen as a representation of how Virgil guided Dante through his writing career, or as a means to honor him for his inspiration.
Moving on, it is interesting how Dante portrays the judgement of the, according to my translation, Pagons who "lacked Baptism's grace"(IV 35). The pagons do not suffer for they reside in Limbo, however they do not rejoice because they reside in Limbo. They have only been spared "without hope" (IV 42). It sounds like Dante is saying that because this group of people does not believe in Christianity they remain in Limbo because they are not divine enough. This portrayal is interesting because Dante leaves no man out of his writing now. In society we tend to look at our beliefs as "since they do not believe in hell, they do not go to hell" however for Dante he sends them to Limbo. Throw in some more ideas about these subjects!
I would not be so hasty in characterizing Dante as a coward. I think it is alright for Virgil to say so because he is a superior being than man so the line, “Cowardice grips your spirit” (II 37) is a valid statement when comparing Dante to Virgil. Although Dante does "swoon" or pass out a lot it is perfectly understandable. I mean, how would you handle seeing crazed beasts ready to eat you, climbing an extremely steep mountain, then entering the DEPTHS OF HELL? Dante was in the presence of Charon the first time he passed out, but this is the man who controls hte river for souls to cross over, but Dante is supposedly still living. All I am saying is I do not think we can judge him as a coward, but he is deifinately mortal.
And I would like to go back to Canto I again. In my translation it is titled, "The Dark Wood of Error" and Virgil is supposed to be a representation of "Human Reason". I do not want to take the first stanza to be too literal, "Midway in our life's journey, I went astray from the straight road and woke to find myself alone in a dark wood...". Perhaps what Dante is referring to is a lost time in his life represented by the Dark Wood and the description of "error" would just be referring to the fact that during lost times mistakes are made and for that a journey through Hell occurs. He states that he is not sure as to why he ended up in the Dark Wood, but for those who have been to a "Dark Wood" before are probably not sure as well. I am trying to pick out the symbols in this work so please help the never ending task of the Inferno!
Alright, now I'm finished with the first 12 Canti and wow... the pace really seems to pick up when he starts getting into the individual circles of Hell. I think Lilly did a good job in outlining each circle of Hell. Here are the notes I jotted down as I read through each canto, the writing in quotation marks is directly quoted:
First Layer (before the first circle): “Faithful to themselves alone, heaven cast them out for imperfection but hells deeps would not receive them.” The people here have “no hope of death.” This, I believe is purgatory. First Circle: No screaming but instead sighing, not sinners but not baptized. Lived before Christianity and did not believe in God; not sinners but have no hope, but always with desire. [Homer, Harris, Ovid, Lucine] Dante becomes sixth in company of great poets, Electra, Cesar, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Democratis, Euclid, etc. The fact that the five great poets accept Dante into their group suggests both that Dante believes himself as a great poet and that he might not fully believe in the correct God. Second Circle: less space, but more pain and grief, sinners of the flesh (lust). The word “pity” is repeated several times, to show Dante’s sorrow. The sinners here are blown around by a tornado like storm. Third Circle: rain, hail, filthy sleet, and murky atmosphere “soak stinking earth on which they fall”, Cerberus: blood red eyes, talons on paws, black stomach. Drowning sinners “whine as dogs do in pouring rain.” Here are the gluttons who overindulged in life. Fourth Circle: “All the universe’s ills are stored” here. Here are those that spent without thought of moderation and those that horded their money [popes clergy etc.]. The people are unrecognizable, enraged, angry, fighting naked, souls of those overcome by anger. Dante comments here about the Church’s greedy ways by hording and spending money and puts popes and clergymen in this circle. Fifth Circle: Pride, consumed by anger. The angry fight each other on top of the water while the slothful drown on the bottom and their sighs come rising out of the water as bubbles. Dante also comments that the deepest circles of hell are the darkest and most “far from sky.” This suggests that the greatest sinners are put furthest away from the “light” (or God). Sixth Circle: Heretics and those that did not believe in God or an afterlife. Seventh Circle: Broken up into three smaller circles and zones of different kinds of violence. 1) Murderers, thieves, etc. Violent against others and others property. 2) People that are “violent against themselves” 3) People that committed violence against God.
I’m sorry that that list is a bit lengthy but I think it should help us guide through the rest of the poem. If we map out all of the layers, at the end we can simply read the summaries to refresh our memory. (Plus I already had the notes and I felt it would be a waste not to post them!) On another note, I find Dante's imagery to be incredible... I do not know if this was the typical style of the time but it seems like the way the poem is written, it is incredibly easy to form vivid depictions of the scenarios in your head. What do you guys think of the imagery?
What I am wondering is how we have gone through seven of nine circles of Hell and are only on Canto 12… I assume that circle 8 and 9 are much larger. Should be interesting. As to the question which circle of hell I am in, from this list I’d say that I’m a combination of one, two and three… For the first circle: I don’t regularly attend church though I believe in God. Second and third: I enjoy life a little too much according to Dante I think. I sure hope Dante’s model isn’t true, the first circle seems boring and the other two seem painful.
Just to quickly comment on Joe's last post about the first stanza, I would say that the "journey" is a symbol for the journey of life. Dante says that half way through that journey (when he is half way through his birth and his death, middle-aged) he finds himself in a "dark wood" and doesn't know how he got there. The dark wood, I thought, was a symbol of a place where one has gone astray. God is light, so darkness is a lack of God. I think Dante here is saying that he has sinned so much that he is gone from the path that leads to God (and is on his way to hell).
Agreeably, The Divine Comedy is a long string of allusions and symbols so I'm glad we're making an effort to analyze some of them. As Katie said, however, it's impossible to analyze everything in the amount of time we have... but maybe we can read Paradise or Heaven for a next book club assignment.
Ok Lily when you were saying how God was a merciful God why he lets us suffer in Hell and how Hell does or doesn't exist. I'm Protestant and the way we see Hell is that when you die you are not excepted in the Kingdom of God, the is supposed to be the worse punishment ever. There is no firey pit and having your limbs ripped and all that stuff. Also yes any church or any religion there is going to be some type of corruption.
Ok Lily when you were saying how God was a merciful God why he lets us suffer in Hell and how Hell does or doesn't exist. I'm Protestant and the way we see Hell is that when you die you are not excepted in the Kingdom of God, the is supposed to be the worse punishment ever. There is no firey pit and having your limbs ripped and all that stuff. Also yes any church or any religion there is going to be some type of corruption.
I wanted to make a comment about canto 15 in the 16 stanza ( i Know people have different translation, so it might be different in your book). The last two lines from that stanza says " Approaches. I command my Treasure to thee, wherein I yet survive; my sole request." Treasure is italic and im pretty sure this is a Biblical connection because in the book of Matthew 6:19-21 it talks about the "treasures" in our lives and how they mean so much to use and they will eventually either be broke, stolen, or rust away. then it ends to say that "where your treasure is there your heart will be also." the treasure here is what you put your faith in meaning God. Now I found it interesting because here it is being used the same way, just that Brunetto is giving his treasure to Dante. He is giving his faith to Dante which I dont get how one does that, but ok.
That word stuck to me and i went to church today and we were talking about that passage and when i was reading the book later i saw the word. I found it really ironic how Dante uses that word treasure.
I also wanted to comment about Brunetto Latini. I did some research on him and the way that Dante talks about him is almost like he was a mentor to him, but in reality he was more a friend or guardian possibly to Dante.
Another thing I found interesting was that he was put in the circle of sodomy. Throughout his lifetime nobody really knew about Brunetto every doing anything like that. So they said that he sinned against Art which I don't understand. I don't see how someone can sin against Art. Also in the book Art is capitilized. I know alot of these people that Dante mentions he never really met, but these are his opinions about them. So this is what Dante thinks about Brunetto? Or does Dante know something about Brunetto that people didn't know? What do you guys think?
To your question about "Tesoro," I looked it up and it said that Tesoro is the Italian name for Latini's French work, the Livres dou Tresor, so that's the connection between Tesoro and Latini, who you researched.
And Ashley, I'm guessing that Dante doesn't like anyone who he puts in hell, that's why they are suffering there for what they've done.
As to the sin against art, I was also confused. But it could be pretty simple, sinning against the "artisanship" of human nature, or the right way to do business. This circle is classified by "usury" which means "the charging of exorbitant interest for loaning money." Even today, there are some religions where making money off of money is prohibited, like in the Muslim religion (I believe). So, this could have been like making money off of no work, off of no labor, which, by Dante, is seen as wrong and deserving of a place in hell.
I have come to a conclusion about this book. everything u do in life is a sin! is there anything that is not a sin!?
I also think everyone Dante writes about he doesn't dislikes. I mean he didn't know every Pope that he mentions or Caesar. I just think since the way they lived their lives and the things they did, he believes they are sinners for whatever they did. I mean some of these guys especially people from the church did committ sinful acts and they are in the level they are in for whatever sin they committed.
I also didn't fully understand the sins agaisnt the arts. And making money off money or no work, would just be unfair and immoral.
I don't really think that the order should be the way it is. I think that suicide is worse then false flattery. Its just my belief because that sin can never be forgiven, like the tree said, his body will be hung on the tree.
As I continued reading, I noticed that there were more allusions to Greek mythology, like the Harpies and Minotaurs. Why do you guys think he alludes to Greek mythology anyways? Why not any other religion? And why would there be tombs in hell? I thought hell just housed souls.
I find it highly ironic for some reason that Hell would contain rivers. Normally, rivers symbolize life because water replenishes. Also, like in The Hours, a river may symbolize time because of its moving water but then how could that be significant in a place where time is arbitrary. In Canto XIV, there is an emphasis on where the rivers come from and their names, Acheron, Styx, Phlegethon, and Cocytus. So my question is why include "Hell's waters"?
It makes sense that they come from tears emphasizing the idea that Hell is full of suffering, grieving, and sorrow and maybe the river is just simply an allusion to the Greek Hell of Hades and that I am wasting my time sharing this. If anything, something to bounce ideas off of.
To comment on Joe's observation, the rivers of Hell are rivers of blood, as I recall. So that emphasizes the sorrows of Hell as weel, because blood is seen as evil.
To continue Dario's notes,
Eighth Circle: called Malebolge, "Evil Pouches". Broken into pouches. 1) Panders and Seducers. Used women for their own advantage. 2) Flatterers.plunged in human waste. << I found this funny, its like they are "full of it" =]. 3) Simoniacs. Those that make profit out of sacred things. 4) Those that used unholy powers to see the future, so their heads are twisted to the back "to see the past". 5) Barterers. Those that took on bribes. 6) Hypocrites. << Self explanatory.
I definetly want to read Russian Lit first too! We still have yet to read Speak, Memory... something we must do!
Moving on, I don’t think Dante actually disliked the people he put in Hell, especially since he met very very few of them, but instead uses them as examples of the sin they committed (or were thought to have committed). People learn best from example, and by using examples of people that most Italians would have known at the time, Dante fully characterizes each circle of Hell.
I also agree with Ashley, EVERYTHING is a sin in this poem… everything! But that could be part of the message, that no one is innocent (except maybe Dante’s beloved Beatrice) and that true goodness is a myth.
To Joe’s concerns about rivers and streams in Hell and the irony that might exist there, I would argue that because the rivers are of the sinners “tears” and run through Hell that they are dirty in a sense. Though you are correct in connecting water to baptism, the reverse is also true. Rising from dirty water is not baptism, it makes the person dirtier. Mostly, however, I think Dante included the rivers for the sheer effect that they add to the circles. As we’ve all agreed upon, imagery is BIG in this poem, and the rivers and streams and stormy rain add to the image of a wet, cold, dirty, and in a way desolate place that Dante has created. That is my opinion, feel free to disagree!
I am willing to read Speak, Memory... but I get worried after reading Metamorphosis leaving the romance languages.
I agree, for the most part, that Dante did not dislike those he put in hell at least when they are not political figures. For example, according to my notes in my translation Brunetto Latini was a real life acquaintance and someone who proved to be kind and helpful to Dante, however he STILL winds up in hell with the Sodomites no other. But when we compare someone who rose to Heaven to a very mortal man like Latini I guess the standards are set fairly high. Moses spent his time in hell before Jesus died and then after his death came and got Moses in order for him to rest in Heaven. Someone like Brunetto in Hell only shows that Dante doesn't just place people in hell because he disliked them, the choice by the author sort of keeps the commedia objective rather than subjective, more or less.
Back to the rivers of Hell, in my translation the waters are not described as blood which is a drastic difference between our two books. They are described as the "tears of man" from a statue. To what Dario was saying about how the rivers and weather add to the "wet, cold, dirty" setting, I would agree partly. I feel like the weather alone captures the wet, cold, and dirty feeling in Hell chosen most likely because it is the most uncomfortable weather. That would mean the river acts alone in its own significance. I really don't know where I am going with this but I agree that the river is not cleansing because it comes from tears. But nonetheless it is still a river and looking more at it, I would say the water symbolizes more of time and how souls have reached the "end of the river" meaning their judgement has been made, sending them to Hell.
Joe brings up a good point as to why Dante chooses who he does for Hell. As Joe said, it seems that people aren’t chosen because they are bad per say but because they are not heavenly. Even the popes are not safe from Dante’s labeling of sinners. In Canto XIX, we see Pope Nicholas the third buried, head first, in the ground with burning fires on his feet. Nicholas’s sin was, as Lilly classified in her summary, simony. It is in the same Canto that Dante (the character, not the author) openly expresses his dislike for the Church and its people. Dante comments that “sinners” exist within the church and describes the “corrupt” clergy as a “burden” on all people. Interestingly, this pouch of Hell is followed by that of the false profits whose heads are turned around so they only see backwards. Dante (the author this time, not the character) juxtapose the corrupt clergy with the false profits to perhaps suggest that the clergy themselves are not too far off from being false profits. Just an interesting connection I saw, what do you guys thing? (I also still maintain that the rivers are largely used as a setting tool, since most of Hell seems to be cold and wet. We’ll have to agree to slightly disagree on this one.)
First to Ashley: I don't think everything is a sin. Well, I mean, in this book, yes. We are in the INFERNO, no? Did you really expect to find good people here? I'm sure if you were in heaven you'd tease them for seeming so perfect. The fact that Dante divided parts of people's lives into the Inferno, Purgatory, and Heaven is highly unrealistic. I mean, is someone purely all evil or perfect? I don't think so...
Lilly: I think Dante constantly refers to Greek Mythology because many people were familiar with it. Throughout the the 20th century, a lot of work was alluded to the Bible as many people were familiar with it and were able to make connections. However, I don't think that Dante limits it to just that. Like I've mentioned before, he brings in some Pagan ideas too. The purpose to which is to make the whole inferno thing more universal, applying to everybody rather than making it exclusive to Christians.
And Lilly, I'm going to have to agree with Joe and disagree with you on the river idea. You said that "blood is seen as evil." But I think it's actually the opposite. In the Bible, blood is sacred and represents life. Genesis 9:4 says, “Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”—Revised Standard Version; Moffatt. So it's apparent that blood=life which makes me just as confused as Joe...
And as to Speak, Memory ... how about we tell it to be quiet for a bit... don't really want to read it :( .
I find the eighth circle of hell interesting. First of all Dante puts all the various types of sins on the same level by calling them the ordinary sins. However I can see some of these sins being in their own circle alone. Or, I feel like the seventh circle of Hell, violence, could be placed after the eighth. Following the pattern at least, the deeper into hell the worse the sin is, Dante is saying that murderers did not sin as badly as those who were "flatterers". Also, I do not see how those who were violent to themselves could have sinned as badly as those who murdered others. I guess to me, murder seems like the ultimate sin mainly because it falls under a "mortal sin" unlike those on the same level.
I would like to disagree with the remark DArio made about "even the popes are not safe from Dante’s labeling of sinners", the people of the clergy, in my opinion, were the least safe from Hell. This is why I "partly agreed" earlier. Dante had a specific detest of the church due to its handlings in politics which is why he throws in the more popular pope names, to make a statement and to make his readers stop for a second and try to rationalize as to why Dante would have churchmen in Hell. We've already seen multiple popes throughout the different layers of hell. The reason why I did agree with you is because of Dante's use of Brunetto Latini, someone shared guidance with Dante and showed him kindness (according to the notes in my book).
I almost missed your post; I think we were writing at the same time. As to who Dante chooses to go to hell, it seems like everyone on Earth must have at one point done something that sinful. It makes me wonder, can he even classify as many good people in heaven?
And Dario, may I say that the clergy/ false prophets connection was excellent; it reminded me of a passage in the Bible. While Jesus was giving his Sermon on the Mount, one of his disciples asked how they would know that they were in the last times. And Jesus said, " Look out so nobody misleads you...For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones." (Matthew 24: 4, 24, 25. And so Dario, I think you are very right when Dante put those two together... definitely making a point. And I was looking for the scripture that said that false prophets would arise among you (like even in the church), but I couldn't find it... :( . But if I do, I'll post it up.
It's crazy to see how every sin is really in the Bible. And in the Inferno, we see how Dante , not God, classifies people, even making political commentaries.
Hi, this post is from earlier this morning about Joe's post, but I wasn't able to upload it because my internet was out:
To Joe's comment, I also find the 8th circle of Hell the most itnersting. It seems to hold the most interesting sins and punishments. I'm also a bit confused why violence is less unholy than flattery or some of the other sins in the 8th circle of Hell. I think that, for the time, Dante was trying to discuorouge the sins of flattery and false prophecy becasue they seem to be more 'avoidable' in a sense. People will not be discouraged from Murder because Dante said so, but they will from some "less extreme" sins. Also, flaterry and the other 8th sins last longer than a murder.
Just some thoughts, I really don't know to be honest. I was surprised also!
My computer froze last night while making my last post! Ugh! Whatever!
Anyways, I thought that the 8th circle of hell was most interesting, too. There are so many subcategories, that it is really easy to be confused by. And like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I don't think the order should be as it is. I agree with Joe that violence should be considered a worse sin, but I still believe that taking your own life is even worse than killing someone else.
And did I completely miss this, but what does Dante believe in? What circle would Dante fall to?
So I’m still in the process of finishing the section of Hell. In canto 30 I found really interesting when he mentioned Myrrha in Greek Mythology about how she had sexual desires of her own father, but she was too afraid to act on her actions because she thought that her sin was extreme which I find odd because a lot of Greek Mythology people had sex with people in their family. So I looked her up and found out that she impersonated her mother (some websites says she just dressed up differently), but she went in the room when her mother was intoxicated and one night her father bought a lamp (or candle) and saw that it was her and I think he tried to kill her, but she ran off. She had her father’s child and for Myrrha’s punishment she was turned into a myrrh tree, but other stories say she turned into one when she fled her father. Which makes sense why she is in that circle because that circle is for people who were imposter’s of other (she supposedly impersonated her mother) and incest is definitely a no big no no in religion.
I also wanted to mention I forget where it says it though, but they mention Lucina which I thought it could have gone to something of lycanthropes, but its actually a Roman Mythology connection and this goddess who eased the pain of childbirth and made sure everything well. I forget which circle she was in, but is she being punished because she eases the pain of childbirth and people during Dante’s time a woman had to go through pain of childbirth because of Eve’s punishment of God and if a woman didn’t go through pain she was considered some witch of some sort? Which I find funny about Lucina is that later she was an epithet of Juno because she is seen as “she who brings light into children”. What do you guys think?
Ok, so finally I feel that this book got a little better towards the end, from canto 31 towards the end. There’s so much to mention, but I’ll start about the giants which I found really interesting. Dante says that Nimrod is there because he was part of building the Tower of Babel. In the Bible it says that God made different languages because the building of Tower of Babel. So why is Nimrod getting punished?
Canto 32 is by far my favorite. It’s horrible, but really interesting how these people are stuck in this river and are just left there to just suffer. Also the first right of the Ninth circle of Hell is called Caina which I believe Dante does that because Cain in the Book of Genesis killed his brother Abel. Throughout reading this whole section I just find it interesting how Dante has this format of where different sinners go. You’d think that murders and people who do worse things would go all the way to Hell, but he take things such as family, something simple and turns it into something huge. Then again it kind of makes sense because family is a big thing during that time and also in the Bible.
Did anybody in Canto 33 find it really gross how one man was eating another man’s head? I mean I think it’s pretty creative how one man ate his son’s body while the other had locked them in there and let them starve to death. The one thing that really got me was how Fra Alberigo and Branca d'Oria were already in Hell and they haven’t even died yet. I looked up information on Alberigio and again betrayal in family is such big thing. It was said that Alberigio had killed his cousin or had his cousin killed and that is why his soul was already in Hell.
In the fourth circle I found it interesting that it was called Judecca which is because of Judas. Then they get to Lucifer which I found odd how he is stuck in the ice? I would think he would be free to roam. For heads he has one chewing Judas for betraying Jesus, but then for the other heads he chose Julius Caesar’s murder’s which was really interesting how he thought those were the worst sinner’s ever. I mean he’s described to have bigger arms than the giants. He could move his wings harder and could get free. I just found this last part odd how he created it.
Ashley, if you found one man eating another man's head gross, I can't imagine what you must have thought of the previous Canti! I mean, being submerged in human feces is grosser for me...
Moving on, to comment on your slight confusion on the last circle of Hell, Satan is obviously there because he cannot escape God. The pattern I've noticed throughout the poem is that cold is used as an absence of God. Though fire is also used for punishment, more often than not it is ice that engulfs the sinners. Since Satan betrayed God and is so far away from God, he is left in the lowest layer of Hell, the furthest from God. This is why he is frozen in ice to his chest and cannot escape. Also, if I'm not incorrect, Satan tries to fly out of the ice, but the great wind he creates by flapping his wings is so intense it just makes it colder and colder... kind of like a never ending punishment, as it gets colder and colder. (Though, phyiscally, it can't go below absolute 0... but that's a different matter).
So basically, it is Satan's might and strength that causes it to get colder, further entrapping him and the other traitors in the ice! This thing is filled with irony, up until the very end!
To Ashley, I think those souls that didn’t die before they came to hell were like the ones giving their souls to the devil because they betrayed their families.
Well, did you guys notice that as Virgil and Dante go down the pouches, they see more souls in flames, when hell should get colder as you go down? Why do you think that is?
The 9th pouch has Mohammad in it, which shows other religions as inferior to Christianity. The punishment in this pouch reminds me of that Greek story where a God is tied against a boulder and an eagle comes by everyday to eat out his liver, which grows again after it is taken out since he’s a god.
8th Level of Hell 7th pouch – Thieves 8th pouch – I’m kind of confused here, its just people that decided to listen to others that were corrupted? 9th pouch - Sowers of Scandal and Schism 10th pouch – Falsifiers - 4 zones 1st zone - Falsifiers of Metals 2nd zone - Falsifiers of Others' Persons 3rd zone - Falsifiers of Coins 4th zone - Falsifiers of Words - Liars
9th Level of Hell – Traitors 1st ring – Traitors of Kin 2nd ring – Traitors of Homeland 3rd ring – Traitors of Guests – Ptolomea I think Klytamnestra’s lover would be here. 4th ring – Traitors of Benefactors
I kind of wished for a better ending. It was all right, but he just goes home, nothing crazier than this. Will Beatrice give him a sign of something? Man! I expected more from the ending! Do you guys think he’ll take all of this and change his ways?
What I find very interesting about the punishments of the sinners in Hell is how specific each one is to the crime. There are ironic twists in how punishment is dealt, both on a layered level and a personal level. It certainly took a lot of planning out.
As to Lilly's last question, we have to remember that this really isn't the "ending" because we only just read a third of the Divine Comedy. However, you brought up a good point in asking if seeing all this terror in the nine circles of Hell has "changed" Dante's ways. If you can recall, the first stanza of the poem is a metaphor for losing the righteous path in life, which Dante suggests happened to him half way through his life. To put himself back on the right track, Virgil takes Dante through the Inferno, Purgatory and Paradise, and (I believe) Dante eventually finds the righteous and holy path. I also think that Dante's life and lifestyle have changed as a result of his trip through Hell. In the last Canto of Hell, Virgil takes Dante through the Earth to get him out of Hell, so they both end up on the other side of the Earth from where they started. Now Dante is obviously not in the dark woods he was in previously, which can be symbolic of him finding the way to the righteous path.
I wonder what Purgatory and Paradise are like... Honestly, I do not think that they could be as interesting as Hell; there's just something about burning/freezing flesh that makes you want to keep reading, you know? Purgatory, I think by definition, is the lack of anything, and Paradise is just perfect. I guess my question is, why didn't Dante chose to end the Divine Comedy with The Inferno instead of beginning with it? My theory as of why is because it seems like the right thing to do to end with God. Any ideas?
First off, I thought that the trap the demons were caught in was really interesting. Although at first we’d assume that they wouldn’t be that vulnerable, I forgot that they too are captive down here in Hell. Again, they too were kicked out of heaven and sent down for punishment, so it’s not like their position in hell is of that great authority. No one down here is living happily; every task or job someone has is unpleasant (I don’t know why I keep saying that. I’m just putting ourselves in Hell).
Another thing I found interesting in Canto XXIV (I can’t count in Roman numerals anymore) was how the serpent and the soul became one. It reminded me back in the Garden of Eden. It doesn’t seem like it would make a lot of sense, but once Eve listened to the serpent, she introduced sin into the world, and became just like the serpent, almost like one body, suggested by Dante here.
Canto XXVIII seemed like a summary of a lot that we’ve already read. Although there is this new idea of the demons cutting in half the sinners, all punishments in Hell seem to be what the sinner did wrong, just putting them in excess of their sin. (The glutton has to endlessly eat, Mohammed (ouch, talk about criticism) is cut apart for dividing people in real life). And once again, in this canto some of the sinners ask to take messages up to heaven. Seems like the sinners want to know they’re not forgotten. Any deeper purpose in this?
As to Ashley's question about Nimrod: Nimrod was the "bady guy" that got people to rebel and build the tower in the first place agaist the will of God. And you know how Adam and Eve wanted to be more like God, a sin, which led to their eventual destruction.
To Lilly: Dante and Virgil are traveling deeper and deeper into the Earth's core, what I thought gets hotter as you get closer to the core...
I was not surprised in Canto XXIX that Dante thought about bringing news to "earth," spreading the names of those men. All throughout he's been reluctant, and now he seems to feel a greater pity for some of the Italians (which seem to be a VAST majority of sinners). It's almost like by Dante giving that message, the sinners escape the eternal suffering of communication. Although it would be indirect, it is some sense of relief. But, Dante stays strong in his spiritual reasons. I think he'd freak out the living people anyway, as the Bible does say that "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." -Ecclesiastes 9:5.
I found a very interesting quote in Canto XXXII which relates to Dante’s development as a character. It says, “I did not open them—for to be rude to such a one as him was courtesy.” Do you remember in the beginning, Dante would pity the sinners a lot, and he would go as far as to cry for him? Well in one of the last canti, we see a change in him as he didn’t even care. I almost didn’t expect this, but the more ice imagery I saw, the more I noticed that Dante was getting colder. Although I first thought that Dante was taking pleasure in the others’ suffering, I see that he does not pity the sinners, what seems to be one of the hardest lessons he’s had to learn. This reminds me of the Bible passage that says hate what God hates. In Psalm 97:6, it says, “hate what is bad. He is guarding the souls of his loyal ones; Out of the hand of the wicked ones he delivers them.” In the beginning of the Inferno, Dante didn’t really express a hate for those sinners. But at the end, he demonstrates that he took one of the first steps of getting closer to God, by hating what he hates. To Dario, I think that Dante started with the Inferno because it’s symbolic of how problems come and get solved. What would be the point of starting a journey (not in the lost woods anymore) in heaven? It’s apparent that I agree with your interpretation, that people are obviously supposed to (well, that’s the goal anyway) end up in heaven. That’s why I think Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are almost representative of life’s journey itself. In the beginning, you can be quite naïve, like Dante, feeling pity for everyone. You then experience the real side of the world, even the deepest worst things (all of Hell). Moving on to Purgatory (guessing from here on) you reflect about decisions made, making changes to your life. You then either go back to literal Hell, or were good enough to end your life with God the Almighty in Heaven.
Katie pointed out an interesting difference between more modern versions of Hell and Dante's version. In what most people would consider Hell today, Demons would be "in charge" as Katie said and the one in control of the whole spectrum would be Lucifer/Satan. However, Dante's version of Hell is designed by God, and He is as control there as on the surface of Earth where the mortals live. This is evident with Lucifer/Satan's current situation: he is entrapped in ice and can only flap his wings (which makes things worse). In this way, Lucifer/Satan is completely impotent, which hits another of Dante's central messages I believe: God is power. God is defined, in this poem, by two things: absolute power and heat. The heat comes from the fact that, more often than not, as you go down the layers of Hell it becomes colder and colder, until you reach the last layer of them all, where Lucifer abides, and it is coldest of all.
How do you guys think Dante classifies God in L'Inferno? I know he doesn't think too highly of the Catholic Church, but is it necessarily a reflection on his belief of the Christian faith and God?
Well, every piece of writing has a bias point of view. I think it was necessary to reflect his belief on it because it justifies the punishments and where every part of Hell is located.
Hell was a lot different than I originally pictured it. I thought Lucifer controlled Hell, but like Katie analyzed, God did. And I guess it makes some sense because the belief is that God is the almighty, but I didn't think he controlled Hell.
53 Comments:
ok i guess ill be the first one to comment. so i think the book is good is just i have a hard time understanding some of the words because the way it is translated.
As i read the book i noticed that he uses alot of Greek mythlogy of monsters such as the three headed dog,the guy who pushes the ferry, and Dante mentions Medusa. I also realized that Dante mentions real people in history such as Juluis Ceasar and those who killed him. HE also mentions people who were religious figures, i can't remember all there names, but did the author who wrote this book really know them? Was this his opinion of them when they died they would go to Hell? Or is he just adding it for the heck of it?
Hi everyone, I hope everyone is enjoying the poem/book so far! I just wanted to begin the discussion with first establishing some rules about the posts that I think will be beneficial. Since we have different translations of the poem, I was thinking that citing the Canto and line number will be beneficial, instead of page numbers. Other than that, I think that everything else should probably remain the same. Let's begin!
Ah, Ash you beat me to the first post by 2 minutes... darn, almost had it.
Moving on, to comment on your question, it is definitely true that Dante uses actual people throughout history to reside in the different layers of hell. While Dante probably knew very few of these people (maybe even none of them) due to the time periods in which they lived, I wouldn't say he uses them "for the heck of it." He uses different Saints, and other historical figures, to represent the sins that each layer of Hell (or the Inferno) and show the punishments for each sin. You have to think of the poem in the context (time and place) that it was written. In the society Dante wrote The Divine Comedy in, a larger amount of the public knew about the religious and historic figures he referred to, more so than in today’s society. Thus, Dante refers to these people because they were known and their characters added detail to Dante’s story.
I’m only on Canto Tre (3) right now so I have not encountered as many characters as you, but I have come across some. I would like to discuss Dante’s guide through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven; Virgil. Dante, who is both the author and speaker, claims that he looks up to Virgil and that Virgil has most effected his work. Virgil states in the first Canto that he is being kept away from the glory of God because he worshiped false gods. Virgil and Dante also discuss Virgil’s great epic poems that inspired the style of Dante’s The Divine Comedy. I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with Virgil’s poetry or writing in general, and if anyone could comment on it. I personally have not read any of his work, but now I am interested in doing so.
Also, something that just struck me, Mrs. Leuzzi told us last year that Dante's Inferno is considered a political commentary. Many of the people Dante involves in the layers of hell have political connections and there certainly is a claim when you put a political figure in hell (raining fiery ashes- the 7th layer of Hell I believe -don't portray people in the best light). Putting Saints in Hell doesn't portray the church in a good light either... I haven't come across any political figures (that I know of) yet but I'm sure we will in the coming canti, so keep your eyes open!
Dario I wanted to comment on your last comment on how it would make a lot of sense if this was a political commentary because like you said during the time this book was written wasn't the church a little corrupt? And when i mean corrupt i meant alot because it was and since the church had alot of control over things he couldn't really say out loud hey the way you guys run this is screwed up! because he'd get in trouble and probably put to death. I didn't think about that. good point =]
Hey guys,
Wow I think I'm going to have to break this Ashley-Dario conversation, haha. Anyway, about the political commentary thing, I think it's definitely a big part of this work. Although the people Dante is talking about may seem a bit unfamiliar to us, it's just like Animal Farm, where you could imply that all of the animals were parallel to some real person. And in thinking about why Dante did this, I thought of his own opinions of certain actions, especially with religion. Back then there was still a struggle between religion and the state (which, I mean, there always will be). And so if Dante were writing today, he'd probably put some pastor that was convicted of sexual child abuse (which for some reason hit an all-time high a couple of years ago). Or perhaps he'd bring up the fact that pastors are letting gays get married in a traditionally catholic church, where the principles of the Bible are not compromised for man. This reminds me of my sophomore year with Ms. Clapp. In Charles Dickens's time, it was extremely racy to talk about sex and things like that so authors would use symbols and other devices to get the point across to the adults while leaving the kids a bit clueless (as stories like A Tale of Two Cities were published serially, and often read for the family at the kitchen table).
Dario, I will try to reference as best as I can, but I still do not think that our lines will be the same. The original first canto is 130 lines long but my translation is only 109... so let me know if your books work the same way.
Anyway... political references... in lines 78-87 where "born between feltro and feltro" comes up. This is referring to the identity of the Hound. Translated literally, feltro is felt, which could allude to a member of the clergy since their robes or cloaks (whatever you call them) were made of felt.
In looking up a bunch of names that come up in the canti, I found that a bunch of them appear in Virgil's Aeneid . So Dario, if you're going to read one of Virgil's books, read that one :) .
In Canto II line 81, Rachel reminded me of the Rachel in the Bible where Jacob (her suitor you can say) was only allowed to marry her after marrying her older sister, Leah.
Gosh, there are sooo many allusions to places and things, books, peopls, Bible happenings. This books is a bit difficult. I heard Dante is like Italy's Shakespeare. But I'm sure we're in for a good read. How about we quickly characterize each layer of hell so we don't get lost ourselves?
ok so canto 11 im a little lost because there are nother 3 circles, but these ones people do not suffer. They must have either talked blasphamy about God, their neighbor, and if im right not treat themselves right either, but then in canto 12 it goes to say that the centaur is the tormentor of those who have committed violence against their neighbor. There is way too many levels of Hell. I think Katie is right we should like summarize what each level is so that way we don't get confused.
Also to add what Katie was talking about. In canto 11 he talks about cardinals which im not sure what that is, but I know they are part of the Catholic church and it mentions sodomy and they try to have a Godhead in their heart. I know people have different translation, but I didn't get the part it said Godhead.
I wanted to point in that canto also that Dante and Virgil have this conversation about these people in that circle they start talking about God and also Nature. They talk about Nature as a female, but also mentions witchcraft and the city of where Aristole was born. They speak of Nature and God has two different paths for people. Nature is the path that is spoken as negative and those who follow "her" are not connected to God and God does not care for them. Then those who follow God's path are of course with God. Which I find ironic because God created nature, in the beginning of Bible is says how God created everything, but here Nature is seen as almost as a seductress. Then when the speaker speaks of the philosphers and mentions of where Aristole was born he is almost damning them for following a different path and following in Nature which I take is witchcraft and for questioning God.
My book is an older version and kinda hard to read, so I hope I'm interperting this right.
Before moving way into the story, I think we missed a few distinctions that the first canto presented to us in terms of where we're going in the story, literally and figuratively.
As you've all noticed, the Inferno is comprised of 34 canti, while Purgatory and Heavean are all 33 canti each. The first canto seems to serve like a prologue, (like Shakespeare does in a lot of his plays). Towards the end of the canto, he says that they would "hear cries of despair" telling us that we were in hell (91). Next, we would "see those souls who are content/ to dwell in fire because they hope some day/ to join the blessed" which happens in Purgatory (94-6). And finally, we will enter "His kingdom, His city, His seat of awe," where the happy people live, heaven (103). Although Dante tells us where we're going, we really don't know what's going to happen.
Secondly, I'd like to point out the importance of the very first lines of the Divine Comedy. It seems so important that Ms. Leuzzi made us memorize the first few lines for Italian class last year. It reads, "Midway on our life's journey, I found myself/ In dark woods, the right road lost" (1-2). Journey = Quest anyone? Let's think How to Read Literature Like a Professor... Quester: Dante Fitting it into the rest seems confusing as all we know is that he's trying to get away from danger. Right in those first lines, there is a contrast between the dark woods and the right road. Because there is obviously a lot of religion involved in this book, that probably shows one of Dante's main struggles throughout his journey, looking for good or God in a bad or sinful world.
In the end, it will be pretty easy to apply his lessons learned to a global scale, as in his first sentance, he uses "our" suggesting that it really applies to humans in general, that we all struggle with the same things.
Like Dario and Ashley both mentioned earlier, I think that the people and things Dante puts into the inferno are symbolic of meanings. Ashley brought up the mythological creatures and one of them is Plutus, the god of wealth, who is found at the entrance of the fourth circle of hell in Canto VI (6). Not only does Dante use mythology, but he also puts pagan gods in there as well, as I’ve mentioned, they were referenced in the Aeineid. Again in Canto VI, Ciacco asks Dante to “recall [his] memory there to the human world” (80) but as a Christian teaching, the dead cannot speak or communicate with people who are alive. So it is apparent that Dante has other religions in mind while writing the Inferno. But because the idea of hell is a catholic teaching, he puts Christianity at a level above the other religions mentioned, having them put strategically in Hell.
Something kind of funny but still sad about Canto VI: the “putrid odor” (11) is from the Gluttons’ waste. Their punishment in Hell is the overabundance of that pleasure which ends up disgusting them more. Well, that’s what I thought anyway. It’s a pretty good punishment too.
Because we are in Hell, many of the people there are lamenting “the second death they must abide” (I 93). (Is it ok to cite like that? The first roman numeral is the canto, and the numerical number is the line?) I’m not sure if any of you know what the second death is, but yes, it has to do with Christianity. So in life, let’s say you die before Judgment Day. Technically to be “judged” you’ll be “alive” so to speak when God will judge your actions, so you will be resurrected to life. However, if God chooses to kill you then you’re pretty much done. No one escapes the second death, which, for those people in the deep layers of hell, is pretty scary. You have a chance anywhere else except there.
There is just way too much to talk about to satisfy me as this is such a complex book, but I’ll try. I pose a question: Virgil, is he helping out Dante just because his love, Beatrice, told him to? What’s the deal with that?
To answer Katie's question, I thought that Beatrice was very persuasive, but that led me to ask...
Did Satin control Hell? If he did, then why would he allow Virgil to leave temporarily? Beatrice was the one to talk to Virgil, not God who is all powerful.
And also, wouldn’t the Ante-Inferno be like purgatory? I thought this because those in purgatory aren’t allowed in Heaven or Hell, too.
Actually, now that i think about it, purgatory was a place where souls stay, but they can eventually go to Heaven. Could they go to Hell instead, or would they have to just stay in purgatory.
Since I agree that we should all understand what each circle is, I started a list. (please fix or add)
1st Limbo – souls that weren’t baptized and died before Christianity
2nd souls of the Lustful
3rd souls of the Gluttonous
4th souls of the Prodigals
5th souls of the Wrathful
6th soulds of the Sullen
7th Lower Hell
I think that the reason Jesus only brought some souls, like Noah and Moses into Heaven from Limbo because they were the ones to believe in one god at that time, even though Christianity wasn’t established yet. The souls that stayed in Limbo, like Virgil, Homor, Aristotle, Pluto, they were all Greeks, who believed in the gods and goddesses. I find it ironic that Hell was described just like it was to the Greeks. For example, the ferry transporting the souls across the river, and the 3 headed dog, Ceberus, was from Greek mythology.
I think I might be in the first circle of Hell, because I don't really much faith... =x Or I might be in the fifth because I was told that I'm angry a lot. 0=]
To Lilly,
I think that's a pretty accurate list. To the reason that supposedly "God" only brought up Moses and Noah, that's pretty obvious that it's your belief and Dante's. I'm sure that the Greeks are writing about how Dante is in Hell and that most Greeks are in Heaven. And the reason why Hell was described similarly to the Greeks is because Dante added a bunch of religions into this (see above post) to make it more universal.
As to you going to hell, haha, I doubt it. I don't know why so many people actually believe in Hell. A lot of Bibles translate the words Sheol and Hades to mean hell, but they really just mean grave. Also, if Hell really existed, then the Bible says that Jesus went to Hell (literally, he went to Hades or Sheol, one of them, which just means the grave. He died and went there). Also, if God is all loving and merciful and all that stuff, why would he torment people? In the Bible it talks about those burning in the lake of sulphur or something like that but I thought it was those that didn't survive the second death, where Satan would be sent along with his followers. Anyway, let's not get off topic.
In characterizing Dante in about the first 5 canti, he definitely seems like a coward. “Cowardice grips your spirit” (II 37) says Virgil of Dante. He is afraid of encountering all of these horrible things. But I just wanted to point out a simile that Dante uses: “As flowers bent and shrunken by night at dawn/ unfold and straighten on their stems, to wake/ brightened by sunlight, so I grew strong again-” (II 104-6). Like one of those flowers that opens again on the next day, Dante rejuvenated himself and became courageous to be strong again.
Going on with my point in my previous post about Dante’s journey, the author Dante quotes a passage in the Bible about this “Beware how you come in and whom you trust/ Don’t be deceived because the gate is wide” (V 18-9). Jesus said this when warning his followers of how to act in the future. He mentioned that wide was the gate that led to destruction but narrow was the path that led to everlasting life. This was someone in hell warning Dante, so even in the beginning, he has in his mind ideas about paths to choose in his journey.
“Within that bog, all naked and muddy- with looks/ of fury, striking each other” (VII 97-8). Talk about a muddy baptism. These people in the 4th ring are literally getting changed into what I think may be even worse people.
And I think that the Alexander from the 12th canto is Alexander the Great!
So weird enough, today as I was praying with my family… -_- … We read a part of the Gospel of Judgment Day. That made me think of the second death for the souls already in Hell, how he will separate the good (on his right side) from the bad (on his left side) in the gospel of Matthew.
And to what Dario and Ashley said about the corruption of the church. When has the church not been corrupted? No offense to anyone, I’m Catholic, myself. It just seems like Christianity is corrupted a lot. For example, the when church officials were selling indulgences way back then, and the Crusades, and then the molestation. I agree that it was taboo to write about the corruption of religion, since the religion probably controlled the state at the time, leading into excommunication/exile.
I looked though The Divine Comedy: Tracing God’s Works and it says that he was in an arranged marriage with Gemma Donati and Beatrice was married to someone else and died shortly after. He uses Beatrice instead of his wife in his book/poems because it was what he wanted to experience.
To touch back on the political topic of Dante's Inferno... Dante makes his views clear in this piece of work. On his journey with Virgil he recognizes Pope Celestine V. Seeing the Pope not in Heaven was probably the reason for the censorship of the Divine Comedy. Looking up who this pope was it turns out that Pope Celestin V became pope in 1294 and lived a "saintly life". However, he was convinced by a man named Boniface VIII that no man can escape being damned. This led Celestin to withdraw papacy which Boniface then directly replaced the pope. This event represents, for Dante, the worst corruptions of the church seeing as to why he would "bump" into Pope CElestin during his travels.
Going to a topic brought up to Katie :" I don't know why so many people actually believe in Hell. A lot of Bibles translate the words Sheol and Hades to mean hell, but they really just mean grave." Well, the way I think about it, the Bible as we know of it today is not the full book. In fact, pieces of the Bible were deliberately left out mainly because whoever at power at the time could do so. So, if Hell was really supposed to mean grave or actually Hell, it was up to a king long ago who decided that he preferred that story over another.
I would most definately have to agree that this work is dense with allusions. So much so that at times I can not even understand what is happening before i research and then reread. His allusions are widely ranged, from greek mythology, to religion, to political figures, to historical figures... his guide is Virgil the great poet himself to start out with. (I think this should satisfy one post)
Now, what I would like to attempt to dive into is what does all this mean? At the very beginning he encounters three beasts, which in my translation are titled, "The LEopard of MAlice and Fraud, The Lion of Violence and Ambition, and The She-Wolf of Incontinence". I am looking at these as the human sins manifested in a crazed beast form which makes perfect sense. In the first canto the she wolf "tracks down all, kills all, and knows no glut, but feeding, she grows hungrier than she was" (92-93). Just like sin that tracks down everyone meaning everyone is affected, and how sin feeds and grows until it kills. Dante makes his views clear throughout "The Inferno". What has me stumped in the beginning is why does Dante choose Virgil? In The Dark Wood of Error where he first meets Virgil, Dante proclaims his admiration for the Poet and I am assuming that Allighieri is portraying himself as the one narrating through the journey. Virgil was supposedly a great influence on Dante's writing style during his life so having Virgil as a guide could be seen as a representation of how Virgil guided Dante through his writing career, or as a means to honor him for his inspiration.
Moving on, it is interesting how Dante portrays the judgement of the, according to my translation, Pagons who "lacked Baptism's grace"(IV 35). The pagons do not suffer for they reside in Limbo, however they do not rejoice because they reside in Limbo. They have only been spared "without hope" (IV 42). It sounds like Dante is saying that because this group of people does not believe in Christianity they remain in Limbo because they are not divine enough. This portrayal is interesting because Dante leaves no man out of his writing now. In society we tend to look at our beliefs as "since they do not believe in hell, they do not go to hell" however for Dante he sends them to Limbo. Throw in some more ideas about these subjects!
To Katie,
I would not be so hasty in characterizing Dante as a coward. I think it is alright for Virgil to say so because he is a superior being than man so the line, “Cowardice grips your spirit” (II 37) is a valid statement when comparing Dante to Virgil. Although Dante does "swoon" or pass out a lot it is perfectly understandable. I mean, how would you handle seeing crazed beasts ready to eat you, climbing an extremely steep mountain, then entering the DEPTHS OF HELL? Dante was in the presence of Charon the first time he passed out, but this is the man who controls hte river for souls to cross over, but Dante is supposedly still living. All I am saying is I do not think we can judge him as a coward, but he is deifinately mortal.
And I would like to go back to Canto I again. In my translation it is titled, "The Dark Wood of Error" and Virgil is supposed to be a representation of "Human Reason". I do not want to take the first stanza to be too literal, "Midway in our life's journey, I went astray from the straight road and woke to find myself alone in a dark wood...". Perhaps what Dante is referring to is a lost time in his life represented by the Dark Wood and the description of "error" would just be referring to the fact that during lost times mistakes are made and for that a journey through Hell occurs. He states that he is not sure as to why he ended up in the Dark Wood, but for those who have been to a "Dark Wood" before are probably not sure as well. I am trying to pick out the symbols in this work so please help the never ending task of the Inferno!
Alright, now I'm finished with the first 12 Canti and wow... the pace really seems to pick up when he starts getting into the individual circles of Hell. I think Lilly did a good job in outlining each circle of Hell. Here are the notes I jotted down as I read through each canto, the writing in quotation marks is directly quoted:
First Layer (before the first circle): “Faithful to themselves alone, heaven cast them out for imperfection but hells deeps would not receive them.” The people here have “no hope of death.” This, I believe is purgatory.
First Circle: No screaming but instead sighing, not sinners but not baptized. Lived before Christianity and did not believe in God; not sinners but have no hope, but always with desire. [Homer, Harris, Ovid, Lucine] Dante becomes sixth in company of great poets, Electra, Cesar, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Democratis, Euclid, etc. The fact that the five great poets accept Dante into their group suggests both that Dante believes himself as a great poet and that he might not fully believe in the correct God.
Second Circle: less space, but more pain and grief, sinners of the flesh (lust). The word “pity” is repeated several times, to show Dante’s sorrow. The sinners here are blown around by a tornado like storm.
Third Circle: rain, hail, filthy sleet, and murky atmosphere “soak stinking earth on which they fall”, Cerberus: blood red eyes, talons on paws, black stomach. Drowning sinners “whine as dogs do in pouring rain.” Here are the gluttons who overindulged in life.
Fourth Circle: “All the universe’s ills are stored” here. Here are those that spent without thought of moderation and those that horded their money [popes clergy etc.]. The people are unrecognizable, enraged, angry, fighting naked, souls of those overcome by anger. Dante comments here about the Church’s greedy ways by hording and spending money and puts popes and clergymen in this circle.
Fifth Circle: Pride, consumed by anger. The angry fight each other on top of the water while the slothful drown on the bottom and their sighs come rising out of the water as bubbles. Dante also comments that the deepest circles of hell are the darkest and most “far from sky.” This suggests that the greatest sinners are put furthest away from the “light” (or God).
Sixth Circle: Heretics and those that did not believe in God or an afterlife.
Seventh Circle: Broken up into three smaller circles and zones of different kinds of violence. 1) Murderers, thieves, etc. Violent against others and others property. 2) People that are “violent against themselves” 3) People that committed violence against God.
I’m sorry that that list is a bit lengthy but I think it should help us guide through the rest of the poem. If we map out all of the layers, at the end we can simply read the summaries to refresh our memory. (Plus I already had the notes and I felt it would be a waste not to post them!) On another note, I find Dante's imagery to be incredible... I do not know if this was the typical style of the time but it seems like the way the poem is written, it is incredibly easy to form vivid depictions of the scenarios in your head. What do you guys think of the imagery?
What I am wondering is how we have gone through seven of nine circles of Hell and are only on Canto 12… I assume that circle 8 and 9 are much larger. Should be interesting. As to the question which circle of hell I am in, from this list I’d say that I’m a combination of one, two and three… For the first circle: I don’t regularly attend church though I believe in God. Second and third: I enjoy life a little too much according to Dante I think. I sure hope Dante’s model isn’t true, the first circle seems boring and the other two seem painful.
Just to quickly comment on Joe's last post about the first stanza, I would say that the "journey" is a symbol for the journey of life. Dante says that half way through that journey (when he is half way through his birth and his death, middle-aged) he finds himself in a "dark wood" and doesn't know how he got there. The dark wood, I thought, was a symbol of a place where one has gone astray. God is light, so darkness is a lack of God. I think Dante here is saying that he has sinned so much that he is gone from the path that leads to God (and is on his way to hell).
Agreeably, The Divine Comedy is a long string of allusions and symbols so I'm glad we're making an effort to analyze some of them. As Katie said, however, it's impossible to analyze everything in the amount of time we have... but maybe we can read Paradise or Heaven for a next book club assignment.
only after we read russian literature first =]
Ok Lily when you were saying how God was a merciful God why he lets us suffer in Hell and how Hell does or doesn't exist. I'm Protestant and the way we see Hell is that when you die you are not excepted in the Kingdom of God, the is supposed to be the worse punishment ever. There is no firey pit and having your limbs ripped and all that stuff.
Also yes any church or any religion there is going to be some type of corruption.
Ok Lily when you were saying how God was a merciful God why he lets us suffer in Hell and how Hell does or doesn't exist. I'm Protestant and the way we see Hell is that when you die you are not excepted in the Kingdom of God, the is supposed to be the worse punishment ever. There is no firey pit and having your limbs ripped and all that stuff.
Also yes any church or any religion there is going to be some type of corruption.
Time to start round two! You guys are having a very useful discussion.
yeah... Russian Lit should come first so we get a more diverse approach to "European" Lit, we can always read the rest of the commedia on our own.
I wanted to make a comment about canto 15 in the 16 stanza ( i Know people have different translation, so it might be different in your book). The last two lines from that stanza says " Approaches. I command my Treasure to thee, wherein I yet survive; my sole request." Treasure is italic and im pretty sure this is a Biblical connection because in the book of Matthew 6:19-21 it talks about the "treasures" in our lives and how they mean so much to use and they will eventually either be broke, stolen, or rust away. then it ends to say that "where your treasure is there your heart will be also." the treasure here is what you put your faith in meaning God. Now I found it interesting because here it is being used the same way, just that Brunetto is giving his treasure to Dante. He is giving his faith to Dante which I dont get how one does that, but ok.
That word stuck to me and i went to church today and we were talking about that passage and when i was reading the book later i saw the word. I found it really ironic how Dante uses that word treasure.
I also wanted to comment about Brunetto Latini. I did some research on him and the way that Dante talks about him is almost like he was a mentor to him, but in reality he was more a friend or guardian possibly to Dante.
Another thing I found interesting was that he was put in the circle of sodomy. Throughout his lifetime nobody really knew about Brunetto every doing anything like that. So they said that he sinned against Art which I don't understand. I don't see how someone can sin against Art. Also in the book Art is capitilized. I know alot of these people that Dante mentions he never really met, but these are his opinions about them. So this is what Dante thinks about Brunetto? Or does Dante know something about Brunetto that people didn't know? What do you guys think?
Ashley,
To your question about "Tesoro," I looked it up and it said that Tesoro is the Italian name for Latini's French work, the Livres dou Tresor, so that's the connection between Tesoro and Latini, who you researched.
And Ashley, I'm guessing that Dante doesn't like anyone who he puts in hell, that's why they are suffering there for what they've done.
As to the sin against art, I was also confused. But it could be pretty simple, sinning against the "artisanship" of human nature, or the right way to do business. This circle is classified by "usury" which means "the charging of exorbitant interest for loaning money." Even today, there are some religions where making money off of money is prohibited, like in the Muslim religion (I believe). So, this could have been like making money off of no work, off of no labor, which, by Dante, is seen as wrong and deserving of a place in hell.
I have come to a conclusion about this book. everything u do in life is a sin! is there anything that is not a sin!?
I also think everyone Dante writes about he doesn't dislikes. I mean he didn't know every Pope that he mentions or Caesar. I just think since the way they lived their lives and the things they did, he believes they are sinners for whatever they did. I mean some of these guys especially people from the church did committ sinful acts and they are in the level they are in for whatever sin they committed.
I also didn't fully understand the sins agaisnt the arts. And making money off money or no work, would just be unfair and immoral.
I don't really think that the order should be the way it is. I think that suicide is worse then false flattery. Its just my belief because that sin can never be forgiven, like the tree said, his body will be hung on the tree.
As I continued reading, I noticed that there were more allusions to Greek mythology, like the Harpies and Minotaurs. Why do you guys think he alludes to Greek mythology anyways? Why not any other religion? And why would there be tombs in hell? I thought hell just housed souls.
I find it highly ironic for some reason that Hell would contain rivers. Normally, rivers symbolize life because water replenishes. Also, like in The Hours, a river may symbolize time because of its moving water but then how could that be significant in a place where time is arbitrary. In Canto XIV, there is an emphasis on where the rivers come from and their names, Acheron, Styx, Phlegethon, and Cocytus. So my question is why include "Hell's waters"?
It makes sense that they come from tears emphasizing the idea that Hell is full of suffering, grieving, and sorrow and maybe the river is just simply an allusion to the Greek Hell of Hades and that I am wasting my time sharing this. If anything, something to bounce ideas off of.
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To comment on Joe's observation,
the rivers of Hell are rivers of blood, as I recall. So that emphasizes the sorrows of Hell as weel, because blood is seen as evil.
To continue Dario's notes,
Eighth Circle: called Malebolge, "Evil Pouches". Broken into pouches. 1) Panders and Seducers. Used women for their own advantage. 2) Flatterers.plunged in human waste. << I found this funny, its like they are "full of it" =]. 3) Simoniacs. Those that make profit out of sacred things. 4) Those that used unholy powers to see the future, so their heads are twisted to the back "to see the past". 5) Barterers. Those that took on bribes. 6) Hypocrites. << Self explanatory.
We have yet to read up any further?
I definetly want to read Russian Lit first too! We still have yet to read Speak, Memory... something we must do!
Moving on, I don’t think Dante actually disliked the people he put in Hell, especially since he met very very few of them, but instead uses them as examples of the sin they committed (or were thought to have committed). People learn best from example, and by using examples of people that most Italians would have known at the time, Dante fully characterizes each circle of Hell.
I also agree with Ashley, EVERYTHING is a sin in this poem… everything! But that could be part of the message, that no one is innocent (except maybe Dante’s beloved Beatrice) and that true goodness is a myth.
To Joe’s concerns about rivers and streams in Hell and the irony that might exist there, I would argue that because the rivers are of the sinners “tears” and run through Hell that they are dirty in a sense. Though you are correct in connecting water to baptism, the reverse is also true. Rising from dirty water is not baptism, it makes the person dirtier. Mostly, however, I think Dante included the rivers for the sheer effect that they add to the circles. As we’ve all agreed upon, imagery is BIG in this poem, and the rivers and streams and stormy rain add to the image of a wet, cold, dirty, and in a way desolate place that Dante has created. That is my opinion, feel free to disagree!
I am willing to read Speak, Memory... but I get worried after reading Metamorphosis leaving the romance languages.
I agree, for the most part, that Dante did not dislike those he put in hell at least when they are not political figures. For example, according to my notes in my translation Brunetto Latini was a real life acquaintance and someone who proved to be kind and helpful to Dante, however he STILL winds up in hell with the Sodomites no other. But when we compare someone who rose to Heaven to a very mortal man like Latini I guess the standards are set fairly high. Moses spent his time in hell before Jesus died and then after his death came and got Moses in order for him to rest in Heaven. Someone like Brunetto in Hell only shows that Dante doesn't just place people in hell because he disliked them, the choice by the author sort of keeps the commedia objective rather than subjective, more or less.
Back to the rivers of Hell, in my translation the waters are not described as blood which is a drastic difference between our two books. They are described as the "tears of man" from a statue. To what Dario was saying about how the rivers and weather add to the "wet, cold, dirty" setting, I would agree partly. I feel like the weather alone captures the wet, cold, and dirty feeling in Hell chosen most likely because it is the most uncomfortable weather. That would mean the river acts alone in its own significance. I really don't know where I am going with this but I agree that the river is not cleansing because it comes from tears. But nonetheless it is still a river and looking more at it, I would say the water symbolizes more of time and how souls have reached the "end of the river" meaning their judgement has been made, sending them to Hell.
Joe brings up a good point as to why Dante chooses who he does for Hell. As Joe said, it seems that people aren’t chosen because they are bad per say but because they are not heavenly. Even the popes are not safe from Dante’s labeling of sinners. In Canto XIX, we see Pope Nicholas the third buried, head first, in the ground with burning fires on his feet. Nicholas’s sin was, as Lilly classified in her summary, simony.
It is in the same Canto that Dante (the character, not the author) openly expresses his dislike for the Church and its people. Dante comments that “sinners” exist within the church and describes the “corrupt” clergy as a “burden” on all people. Interestingly, this pouch of Hell is followed by that of the false profits whose heads are turned around so they only see backwards. Dante (the author this time, not the character) juxtapose the corrupt clergy with the false profits to perhaps suggest that the clergy themselves are not too far off from being false profits. Just an interesting connection I saw, what do you guys thing?
(I also still maintain that the rivers are largely used as a setting tool, since most of Hell seems to be cold and wet. We’ll have to agree to slightly disagree on this one.)
First to Ashley: I don't think everything is a sin. Well, I mean, in this book, yes. We are in the INFERNO, no? Did you really expect to find good people here? I'm sure if you were in heaven you'd tease them for seeming so perfect. The fact that Dante divided parts of people's lives into the Inferno, Purgatory, and Heaven is highly unrealistic. I mean, is someone purely all evil or perfect? I don't think so...
Lilly: I think Dante constantly refers to Greek Mythology because many people were familiar with it. Throughout the the 20th century, a lot of work was alluded to the Bible as many people were familiar with it and were able to make connections. However, I don't think that Dante limits it to just that. Like I've mentioned before, he brings in some Pagan ideas too. The purpose to which is to make the whole inferno thing more universal, applying to everybody rather than making it exclusive to Christians.
And Lilly, I'm going to have to agree with Joe and disagree with you on the river idea. You said that "blood is seen as evil." But I think it's actually the opposite. In the Bible, blood is sacred and represents life. Genesis 9:4 says, “Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”—Revised Standard Version; Moffatt. So it's apparent that blood=life which makes me just as confused as Joe...
And as to Speak, Memory ... how about we tell it to be quiet for a bit... don't really want to read it :( .
I find the eighth circle of hell interesting. First of all Dante puts all the various types of sins on the same level by calling them the ordinary sins. However I can see some of these sins being in their own circle alone. Or, I feel like the seventh circle of Hell, violence, could be placed after the eighth. Following the pattern at least, the deeper into hell the worse the sin is, Dante is saying that murderers did not sin as badly as those who were "flatterers". Also, I do not see how those who were violent to themselves could have sinned as badly as those who murdered others. I guess to me, murder seems like the ultimate sin mainly because it falls under a "mortal sin" unlike those on the same level.
I would like to disagree with the remark DArio made about "even the popes are not safe from Dante’s labeling of sinners", the people of the clergy, in my opinion, were the least safe from Hell. This is why I "partly agreed" earlier. Dante had a specific detest of the church due to its handlings in politics which is why he throws in the more popular pope names, to make a statement and to make his readers stop for a second and try to rationalize as to why Dante would have churchmen in Hell. We've already seen multiple popes throughout the different layers of hell. The reason why I did agree with you is because of Dante's use of Brunetto Latini, someone shared guidance with Dante and showed him kindness (according to the notes in my book).
Dario,
I almost missed your post; I think we were writing at the same time. As to who Dante chooses to go to hell, it seems like everyone on Earth must have at one point done something that sinful. It makes me wonder, can he even classify as many good people in heaven?
And Dario, may I say that the clergy/ false prophets connection was excellent; it reminded me of a passage in the Bible. While Jesus was giving his Sermon on the Mount, one of his disciples asked how they would know that they were in the last times. And Jesus said, " Look out so nobody misleads you...For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones." (Matthew 24: 4, 24, 25. And so Dario, I think you are very right when Dante put those two together... definitely making a point. And I was looking for the scripture that said that false prophets would arise among you (like even in the church), but I couldn't find it... :( . But if I do, I'll post it up.
It's crazy to see how every sin is really in the Bible. And in the Inferno, we see how Dante , not God, classifies people, even making political commentaries.
Hi, this post is from earlier this morning about Joe's post, but I wasn't able to upload it because my internet was out:
To Joe's comment, I also find the 8th circle of Hell the most itnersting. It seems to hold the most interesting sins and punishments. I'm also a bit confused why violence is less unholy than flattery or some of the other sins in the 8th circle of Hell. I think that, for the time, Dante was trying to discuorouge the sins of flattery and false prophecy becasue they seem to be more 'avoidable' in a sense. People will not be discouraged from Murder because Dante said so, but they will from some "less extreme" sins. Also, flaterry and the other 8th sins last longer than a murder.
Just some thoughts, I really don't know to be honest. I was surprised also!
My computer froze last night while making my last post! Ugh! Whatever!
Anyways, I thought that the 8th circle of hell was most interesting, too. There are so many subcategories, that it is really easy to be confused by. And like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I don't think the order should be as it is. I agree with Joe that violence should be considered a worse sin, but I still believe that taking your own life is even worse than killing someone else.
And did I completely miss this, but what does Dante believe in? What circle would Dante fall to?
Hi guys,
So I’m still in the process of finishing the section of Hell. In canto 30 I found really interesting when he mentioned Myrrha in Greek Mythology about how she had sexual desires of her own father, but she was too afraid to act on her actions because she thought that her sin was extreme which I find odd because a lot of Greek Mythology people had sex with people in their family. So I looked her up and found out that she impersonated her mother (some websites says she just dressed up differently), but she went in the room when her mother was intoxicated and one night her father bought a lamp (or candle) and saw that it was her and I think he tried to kill her, but she ran off. She had her father’s child and for Myrrha’s punishment she was turned into a myrrh tree, but other stories say she turned into one when she fled her father. Which makes sense why she is in that circle because that circle is for people who were imposter’s of other (she supposedly impersonated her mother) and incest is definitely a no big no no in religion.
I also wanted to mention I forget where it says it though, but they mention Lucina which I thought it could have gone to something of lycanthropes, but its actually a Roman Mythology connection and this goddess who eased the pain of childbirth and made sure everything well. I forget which circle she was in, but is she being punished because she eases the pain of childbirth and people during Dante’s time a woman had to go through pain of childbirth because of Eve’s punishment of God and if a woman didn’t go through pain she was considered some witch of some sort? Which I find funny about Lucina is that later she was an epithet of Juno because she is seen as “she who brings light into children”. What do you guys think?
Ok, so finally I feel that this book got a little better towards the end, from canto 31 towards the end. There’s so much to mention, but I’ll start about the giants which I found really interesting. Dante says that Nimrod is there because he was part of building the Tower of Babel. In the Bible it says that God made different languages because the building of Tower of Babel. So why is Nimrod getting punished?
Canto 32 is by far my favorite. It’s horrible, but really interesting how these people are stuck in this river and are just left there to just suffer. Also the first right of the Ninth circle of Hell is called Caina which I believe Dante does that because Cain in the Book of Genesis killed his brother Abel. Throughout reading this whole section I just find it interesting how Dante has this format of where different sinners go. You’d think that murders and people who do worse things would go all the way to Hell, but he take things such as family, something simple and turns it into something huge. Then again it kind of makes sense because family is a big thing during that time and also in the Bible.
Did anybody in Canto 33 find it really gross how one man was eating another man’s head? I mean I think it’s pretty creative how one man ate his son’s body while the other had locked them in there and let them starve to death. The one thing that really got me was how Fra Alberigo and Branca d'Oria were already in Hell and they haven’t even died yet. I looked up information on Alberigio and again betrayal in family is such big thing. It was said that Alberigio had killed his cousin or had his cousin killed and that is why his soul was already in Hell.
In the fourth circle I found it interesting that it was called Judecca which is because of Judas. Then they get to Lucifer which I found odd how he is stuck in the ice? I would think he would be free to roam. For heads he has one chewing Judas for betraying Jesus, but then for the other heads he chose Julius Caesar’s murder’s which was really interesting how he thought those were the worst sinner’s ever. I mean he’s described to have bigger arms than the giants. He could move his wings harder and could get free. I just found this last part odd how he created it.
Ashley, if you found one man eating another man's head gross, I can't imagine what you must have thought of the previous Canti! I mean, being submerged in human feces is grosser for me...
Moving on, to comment on your slight confusion on the last circle of Hell, Satan is obviously there because he cannot escape God. The pattern I've noticed throughout the poem is that cold is used as an absence of God. Though fire is also used for punishment, more often than not it is ice that engulfs the sinners. Since Satan betrayed God and is so far away from God, he is left in the lowest layer of Hell, the furthest from God. This is why he is frozen in ice to his chest and cannot escape. Also, if I'm not incorrect, Satan tries to fly out of the ice, but the great wind he creates by flapping his wings is so intense it just makes it colder and colder... kind of like a never ending punishment, as it gets colder and colder. (Though, phyiscally, it can't go below absolute 0... but that's a different matter).
So basically, it is Satan's might and strength that causes it to get colder, further entrapping him and the other traitors in the ice! This thing is filled with irony, up until the very end!
To Ashley, I think those souls that didn’t die before they came to hell were like the ones giving their souls to the devil because they betrayed their families.
Well, did you guys notice that as Virgil and Dante go down the pouches, they see more souls in flames, when hell should get colder as you go down? Why do you think that is?
The 9th pouch has Mohammad in it, which shows other religions as inferior to Christianity. The punishment in this pouch reminds me of that Greek story where a God is tied against a boulder and an eagle comes by everyday to eat out his liver, which grows again after it is taken out since he’s a god.
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So to continue my notes,
8th Level of Hell
7th pouch – Thieves
8th pouch – I’m kind of confused here, its just people that decided to listen to others that were corrupted?
9th pouch - Sowers of Scandal and Schism
10th pouch – Falsifiers - 4 zones
1st zone - Falsifiers of Metals
2nd zone - Falsifiers of Others' Persons
3rd zone - Falsifiers of Coins
4th zone - Falsifiers of Words - Liars
9th Level of Hell – Traitors
1st ring – Traitors of Kin
2nd ring – Traitors of Homeland
3rd ring – Traitors of Guests – Ptolomea I think Klytamnestra’s lover would be here.
4th ring – Traitors of Benefactors
I kind of wished for a better ending. It was all right, but he just goes home, nothing crazier than this. Will Beatrice give him a sign of something? Man! I expected more from the ending! Do you guys think he’ll take all of this and change his ways?
What I find very interesting about the punishments of the sinners in Hell is how specific each one is to the crime. There are ironic twists in how punishment is dealt, both on a layered level and a personal level. It certainly took a lot of planning out.
As to Lilly's last question, we have to remember that this really isn't the "ending" because we only just read a third of the Divine Comedy. However, you brought up a good point in asking if seeing all this terror in the nine circles of Hell has "changed" Dante's ways. If you can recall, the first stanza of the poem is a metaphor for losing the righteous path in life, which Dante suggests happened to him half way through his life. To put himself back on the right track, Virgil takes Dante through the Inferno, Purgatory and Paradise, and (I believe) Dante eventually finds the righteous and holy path. I also think that Dante's life and lifestyle have changed as a result of his trip through Hell. In the last Canto of Hell, Virgil takes Dante through the Earth to get him out of Hell, so they both end up on the other side of the Earth from where they started. Now Dante is obviously not in the dark woods he was in previously, which can be symbolic of him finding the way to the righteous path.
I wonder what Purgatory and Paradise are like... Honestly, I do not think that they could be as interesting as Hell; there's just something about burning/freezing flesh that makes you want to keep reading, you know? Purgatory, I think by definition, is the lack of anything, and Paradise is just perfect. I guess my question is, why didn't Dante chose to end the Divine Comedy with The Inferno instead of beginning with it? My theory as of why is because it seems like the right thing to do to end with God. Any ideas?
First off, I thought that the trap the demons were caught in was really interesting. Although at first we’d assume that they wouldn’t be that vulnerable, I forgot that they too are captive down here in Hell. Again, they too were kicked out of heaven and sent down for punishment, so it’s not like their position in hell is of that great authority. No one down here is living happily; every task or job someone has is unpleasant (I don’t know why I keep saying that. I’m just putting ourselves in Hell).
Another thing I found interesting in Canto XXIV (I can’t count in Roman numerals anymore) was how the serpent and the soul became one. It reminded me back in the Garden of Eden. It doesn’t seem like it would make a lot of sense, but once Eve listened to the serpent, she introduced sin into the world, and became just like the serpent, almost like one body, suggested by Dante here.
Canto XXVIII seemed like a summary of a lot that we’ve already read. Although there is this new idea of the demons cutting in half the sinners, all punishments in Hell seem to be what the sinner did wrong, just putting them in excess of their sin. (The glutton has to endlessly eat, Mohammed (ouch, talk about criticism) is cut apart for dividing people in real life). And once again, in this canto some of the sinners ask to take messages up to heaven. Seems like the sinners want to know they’re not forgotten. Any deeper purpose in this?
As to Ashley's question about Nimrod: Nimrod was the "bady guy" that got people to rebel and build the tower in the first place agaist the will of God. And you know how Adam and Eve wanted to be more like God, a sin, which led to their eventual destruction.
To Lilly: Dante and Virgil are traveling deeper and deeper into the Earth's core, what I thought gets hotter as you get closer to the core...
I was not surprised in Canto XXIX that Dante thought about bringing news to "earth," spreading the names of those men. All throughout he's been reluctant, and now he seems to feel a greater pity for some of the Italians (which seem to be a VAST majority of sinners). It's almost like by Dante giving that message, the sinners escape the eternal suffering of communication. Although it would be indirect, it is some sense of relief. But, Dante stays strong in his spiritual reasons. I think he'd freak out the living people anyway, as the Bible does say that "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." -Ecclesiastes 9:5.
I found a very interesting quote in Canto XXXII which relates to Dante’s development as a character. It says, “I did not open them—for to be rude to such a one as him was courtesy.” Do you remember in the beginning, Dante would pity the sinners a lot, and he would go as far as to cry for him? Well in one of the last canti, we see a change in him as he didn’t even care. I almost didn’t expect this, but the more ice imagery I saw, the more I noticed that Dante was getting colder. Although I first thought that Dante was taking pleasure in the others’ suffering, I see that he does not pity the sinners, what seems to be one of the hardest lessons he’s had to learn. This reminds me of the Bible passage that says hate what God hates. In Psalm 97:6, it says, “hate what is bad. He is guarding the souls of his loyal ones; Out of the hand of the wicked ones he delivers them.” In the beginning of the Inferno, Dante didn’t really express a hate for those sinners. But at the end, he demonstrates that he took one of the first steps of getting closer to God, by hating what he hates.
To Dario, I think that Dante started with the Inferno because it’s symbolic of how problems come and get solved. What would be the point of starting a journey (not in the lost woods anymore) in heaven? It’s apparent that I agree with your interpretation, that people are obviously supposed to (well, that’s the goal anyway) end up in heaven. That’s why I think Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are almost representative of life’s journey itself. In the beginning, you can be quite naïve, like Dante, feeling pity for everyone. You then experience the real side of the world, even the deepest worst things (all of Hell). Moving on to Purgatory (guessing from here on) you reflect about decisions made, making changes to your life. You then either go back to literal Hell, or were good enough to end your life with God the Almighty in Heaven.
Katie pointed out an interesting difference between more modern versions of Hell and Dante's version. In what most people would consider Hell today, Demons would be "in charge" as Katie said and the one in control of the whole spectrum would be Lucifer/Satan. However, Dante's version of Hell is designed by God, and He is as control there as on the surface of Earth where the mortals live. This is evident with Lucifer/Satan's current situation: he is entrapped in ice and can only flap his wings (which makes things worse). In this way, Lucifer/Satan is completely impotent, which hits another of Dante's central messages I believe: God is power. God is defined, in this poem, by two things: absolute power and heat. The heat comes from the fact that, more often than not, as you go down the layers of Hell it becomes colder and colder, until you reach the last layer of them all, where Lucifer abides, and it is coldest of all.
How do you guys think Dante classifies God in L'Inferno? I know he doesn't think too highly of the Catholic Church, but is it necessarily a reflection on his belief of the Christian faith and God?
Well, every piece of writing has a bias point of view. I think it was necessary to reflect his belief on it because it justifies the punishments and where every part of Hell is located.
Hell was a lot different than I originally pictured it. I thought Lucifer controlled Hell, but like Katie analyzed, God did. And I guess it makes some sense because the belief is that God is the almighty, but I didn't think he controlled Hell.
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