Act III of R and G
So, here's the place to wrap it up...so how unimportant are we, in the end? Despite their muddling, I feel for the boys in the end...
posted by Ms. Clapp @ 6:15 PM
9 comments
Wednesday, November 29, 2006
Previous Posts
- R & G Act II
- Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead...or they wi...
- Q & A for 2.2 and 3.1
- Hamlet Goodies Culled From the Web
- A Fun Collection of Information on Topics Relating...
- Let's see those critical reasoning skills, kids!
- It's Almost That Time....
- Open Space
- The Gatekeepers
- Things Fall Apart
9 Comments:
Well, while reading Grace's comment, I feel like she made some really good points. I thought the boat imagery was a symbol of fate and the inevitable end of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Boats usually have a set destination and for Ros and Guil, their destination was their death. Boats float around and just knowing that you don't have to navigate it and just be a passenger makes me feel like Ros and Guil are just slowly letting the like currents and the ocean to guide them to their death. Also, I was going to say this yesterday in class, but the period ended so here I go. The whole imagery of being trapped in a box on page 71 where Ros asks whether it is better to be alive or dead in a box and I just think that either way it doesn't matter. Whether you are dead or alive, you are still going to feel trapped in the box and I think it represents how Ros and Guil are trapped in their own fate and their own life. Also, I brought this up in discussion in class, but I still do not understand why Ros and Guil didn't realize that the letter was changed IFFF they read the letter already beforehand.
Okay, so I think that Stoppard is trying to suggest that life is meaningless. I think that Ros and Guil think that they themselves are worthless and useless. They never know where they are going and if they do, they don't know what to DO once they get their. If you think about it, nobody would miss Ros and Guil when they die. They only had each other. If nobody realizes that they are gone, they must not have been that important. The line where Ros says "I'm only good in support" (104) Ros doesn't even think that he is the main character in his OWN life, therefore he doesn't even think he is important in his own life. On page 110, Guil says that "he's just one man among many, the loss would be well within the reason and convenience." I think this supports my theory above where the death of one man, is like minor compared to everybody in the world who is living. He also says that there are "...wheels wintin wheels..." and I think that Stoppard is saying that we are one tiny piece of matter in a large world, therefore making us unsignificant.
I am in total accord with what everyone has said thus far: there is definitely the insinuation of man's utter unimportance. If we examine Guildenstern's speech, in which he declares, "We are little men, we don't know the ins and outs of the matter, there are wheels within wheels, etcetera--it would be presumptuous of us to interfere with the designs of fates or even of kings" (110), I think this pretty much sums of the ideas of man's insignificance. Guildenstern outright calls himself and Rosenstern "little men," signifying how in the grand scheme of things, their lives and their trials and tribulations, no matter how grand or important they may have seemed to them, make no lasting impact. The idea of the "wheels within the wheels" suggests the idea of fate moving forward on its own accord, as if one gear hits the other to keep the cycle moving, without any outside influence controlling it: it is just moving forward based on its own momentum. By saying that it would be “presumptuous” to interfere with fate, there is again presented the idea of fate being this dominating force that “little men” like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are helpless and powerless in the face of.
However, I think this also relates to the idea that we discussed in class—how the two men are just trying to make excuses for why they have not acted and why they are just letting themselves be blown about by fate. Like the “to be or not to be” speech, it is just easier for them to not “be” and let themselves be propelled forward without exerting any effort. Tommy brought up the idea of the boat being a symbol of Stoppard’s message that we should just be happy about where we are going and not worry; I had a different interpretation of this. I actually thought this section was Stoppard pointing out the flaws of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Again, they are not “be-ers,” and they use the boat as an excuse to just let fate take them where they are supposed to, which I think is their major shortcoming (and the one that Stoppard is trying to highlight). I believe Tania brought this up in her last blog, but this idea relates to the fact that although fate is a dominating factor in their lives, in a way the men allowed their lives to take the shape it has taken because they just sit back and let other forces determine how their lives are going to end up. This also relates to the quotation that Drew brought up in class: “There must have been a moment, at the beginning, where we could have said—no. But somehow we missed it” (125). Rosencrantz and Guildenstern have some degree of free will that they could have exercised (as Rosencrantz tried to demonstrate when he yelled out “fire!”); they could have not followed through on the summons, they could have turned back in their journey, they could have refused to go to England, but they permitted themselves to be pulled forward without any objections. They are the tragic heroes of the tale: they have this tragic flaw—their inaction—and they don’t realize their flaw until it is too late to alter the course of fate.
Nevertheless, despite the fact that Ros and Guild perhaps had the ability to change their destinies somewhat—or at least TRY to change their destinies--, there was still no way to change their ultimate fate: death. I think this idea is exemplified when Guildenstern says, “We can move [in the boat] of course, change direction, rattle about, but our movement is contained without a larger one that carries us along as inexorably as the wind and current” (122). Thus, no matter the actions they may take, i.e. trying to change the direction of the "boat" of their life, they are still going to end up with this final fate. As Maggie pointed out, the boat was a symbol of their fates pulling them toward death. It is also quite ironic how they talk about being able to change the course of the boat and declare “Spontaneity and whim are the order of the day” (116) in that they supposedly have so much "control" in being able to do so, and yet they do nothing to fight against those “wheels” that had already been set in motion for them. The idea of the boat leading them toward their deaths is also indicative of man’s unimportance in implying that in the end, there is nothing man can do to prevent this fate; he has no control over this final destiny, no matter what role fate may or may not have played in the other aspects of his life. Also, I agree with Grace’s idea of man’s insignificance as presented in the quotation “the loss [of Hamlet] would be well within reason and convenience” (110). Hamlet’s death would just be one within uncountable others. Taking into account so many years of history and innumerable deaths, another death would be a tiny speck, unnoticeable in this grand spectrum of life and death. I think Stoppard also suggests man’s unimportance in how he can’t try to alter the fates of other men, as when Guil tries to kill the player, but because it wasn’t in his fate to die at this time, he is unaffected by Guil’s sword. Fate-- of others, of oneself-- is overall too important to be reckoned with, which again portrays man's lack of control in life. I keep flip-flopping on this, but it seems like even if Ros and Guil did take action and try to change their destinies, their destinies were ultimately "written" and that eventually they would have been led to this same fate (sometimes, however, I think that they could have, if they realized their tragic flaw ahead of time, changed their destinies--what do you guys think?). Obviously the book is saying that all men are going to die eventually, but perhaps they could have died of old age instead if they had caught themselves in time?
Ultimately, while man is so minor in taking into account all of history and all of the universe, Ros and Guild let themselves also be unimportant in their own lives as well, the place where they could have taken on an important role. Ms. Clapp brought up the idea in class of Hamlet being the sun around which they revolve, which is definitely true. They are always awaiting Hamlet, seeking him out so that they may fulfill their duty in regards to him—ask him questions, find out the cause of his madness, bring him to England. Once Rosencrantz and Guildenstern grapple with the idea that Hamlet may be dead, they bemoan, “We need Hamlet for our release!” (120). The two men are essentially nothing without Hamlet; they no longer have anything around which to orbit, and their lives—according to them—have now lost all meaning.
I think that Stoppard is suggesting that people aren't as important as they would like to think they are in this world. One person's death doesn't have that great of an impact on the world. We will all eventually die in the end no matter what and nothing matters once we're dead. This reminds me of Hamlet's conclusion of how pointless life is when once a person dies they will become nothing more than dirt and clay that will be used to make barrel-stoppers. Fate will guide each and every person to death, the only difference is every person will take a different path to get to that ultimate fate.The player in the play says"Life is a gamble, at terrible odds..."(115) which suggest that everything a person does, every choice they make, is a gamble that either brings them closer to death or it makes it further away. Even though eventually we end up dead.
I like Grace's boat analogy, we are all lounging around in the boat until it's our turn to go, and once that time comes we will get off and die. Ros and Guil get on this boat and they let it take them whereever it is heading. They do not take control of their lives and allow other people to run it. They will not be the "main character" of their story but are "only good in support."(104)I definatelly agree with Maggie on that.To be honest i highly doubt Ros and Guil will be missed much when they die, they are such minor characters and aren't "be-ers"!But at least they have each other! Look what you've started Jill.
Also, I would like to mention the part where Ros asked if "death could possibly be a boat."(108)and Guil responds by saying "you can't not-be on a boat" (108). It reminds me of the discussion where Ms Clapp mentioned heaven as a high school dance. I mean who knows where death could be! It could be anywhere.
Well, everyone else opened by talking about a boat, so I won't disrupt the harmony, yet. Aside from any deeper meaning, the boat is just symbolic in itself. Boats are man-made and hours of life are put into making them. There are nearly infinite paths a boat can travel (in water). Boats are propelled by wind and metaphorically by fate. In this sense, the quality of the boat determines the duration of life and its events. If one is sailing a finely crafted vessel with mighty sails that propel it with ease and the boat triumphs over water easily, they will live a fast but smooth life. If one is traveling on a dilapidated row-boat that springs leaks and whatnot, their death is going to be prolonged, but they will suffer more hardships. The man on the sail boat is floated toward death by the wind (fate) while the man with the row-boat, while agonizing, controls his destiny with each stroke from his paddles. Incase I've lost you, I'll just sum up my point: Guil and Ros traveled to death at ease without suffering too many conflicts.
But did they want to be on that boat, or did they miss their chance to fight against the choppy waters of life? At some points in the book, Ros and Guil question whether they could change their fortunes around and live their lives as they see fit. Does anyone believe that they would have taken arms against the sea with paddle in hand? I reckon that Ros and Guil would have only noticed the opportunity if it was directly thrust upon them; they seem horrible at thinking about something before it happens. In fact, if they were given the choice of the type of boat in which to sail through life on, I believe the two gentlemen would simply flip a coin to decide.
The answer the basic question of the blog, we are quite unimportant. However, Nina mentioned that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern clearly recognize this fact in there lines, but I get the hint though that they actually think they are important, though obviously they are not, such as shown when Rosencrantz says, “They had it in for us, didn’t they? Right from the beginning. Who’d have thought that we were so important?” (122). It’s ironic that he and Guildenstern are actually, and obviously, UNIMPORTANT, even in this same situation, yet they really believe that they their lives have great significance in the world.
What they do recognize though, is their ultimate fate of death, as the whole boat analogy/symbolism showed as everyone pointed out. And to answer Nina’s question: “I think that they could have, if they realized their tragic flaw ahead of time, changed their destinies--what do you guys think?” and also Dana’s question, “Does anyone believe that they would have taken arms against the sea with paddle in hand?” together, I don’t think that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern would have tried to change their fate even if they realized their own shortcomings ahead of time. Well, one reason is the one that Nina pointed out--their fate was already “written” for them, so there is no way to alter that fate. Another reason is their character: Ros and Guil are just too indifferent about life. Even if they realized their tragic flaw ahead of time, they would do nothing to change it (and they’re too ignorant to know how to and frankly, they just don’t quite care). This is like the ending; they found out that they would be killed, but they just didn’t care. They didn’t feel like there was anything they could do. Obviously, they would die no matter what in the end, but they could have at least lived longer.
Well, in the end, we really aren't that important. To be frank, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern were completely supporting characters. I like what Drew said about how people only exist when we are around them and they are affecing us. I like this because in this play, we only get Ros and Guil's point of view, and Hamlet is barely mentioned unless he is around them or interacting with them. The question that derives from this is: does Hamlet really exist when he isn't in those scenes? I love the boat imagery that everyone has brought up and the connections to fate are well thought out. I believe that no matter what choices you make, you are going to end up at the same point ultimately, which in every case is death. I think Rosencrantz and Guildenstern really lived by this description of fate because in the end, even when they knew they were going to die, they just sit back and let it happen. For some reason it reminds me of Armageddon (BRUCE WILLIS MOVIE) where Steve Buscemy is on the meteor and says, "Come on, guys, we should enjoy this! We've got front row tickets to the end of the world," because they knew the end was coming and they just watched it. Sorry, I'm going through Bruce Willis withdrawals and I just needed to put something in there. =)Well, in total, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead has been a fun experience. It's interesting to see these types of spin-offs done from classics like Hamlet because it gives an entirely new sense to it all. Now if only they can do a spin-off of a Bruce Willis movie with...oh my God, JUST BRUCE WILLIS!!! That would be amazing.
Okay shut up, Dan. You have work early in the morning, so go to sleep.
Kudos to Grace for the boat analogy! I definitely agree that individual lives are unimportant and that our lives are pretty much determined by fate. We all have to face death at one time or another, there is not hiding from it. When R & G jump into the barrel together, it made me think of how they were running away from death. They had previously run up to fight the pirates but then they came scampering back down. Afraid of death much? Nobody can hide from it, and eventually, R & G come out of the barrel and face their eventual fate.
In response to Dana's question, I agree with Cora that R & G wouldn't have even tried going against fate. They had been pushovers all of this time and they were used to it. Human nature is to fear change and when R & G had the opportunity to make their own decisions for once, they were hesitant and confused. It's obvious that they aren't the two to attempt to forge their own paths. Not only that, Ros and Guil have such different personalities that they would probably debate one another or confuse one another as to their course of action. I agree Dana, their only solution would be to flip the coin. They seem to be pretty good at that.
Back to the main question at hand... We are but little insignificant specks in the universe (sorry guys). We may do extraordinary things in life, but it will mean nothing once we are dead. Think about the gravediggers in Hamlet. In Hamlet, the gravediggers were digging up old skeletons to make room for a new inhabitant. Nobody cares who you were once you're dead, all that matters is whose grave are you going to take over. Death is our doom, there is nothing more to it. I, too, feel bad for R & G at the end, although I partially think they deserved their early demise. They had been letting themselves get pushed around and controlled yet they didn't try to stop it. But R & G have such a lovable relationship that it's sad to see them go. Ros is such a kid at heart, the way that he only wanted to make Guil happy when they were playing yet another coin game on the boat, that it's hard not to love him at that moment.
Generally people's comments on the whole boat imagery deal and how this connects on a figurative level to individual lives have been great. I'm just going to have to add to Grace's shower of compliments and note that that was a nice little observation from the game of tag.
So here's what I'm getting from Stoppard's brilliant little play here: even though we're all floating on this boat, inside a box which is inside a larger box that is floating towards death, why would we not make the best of our lives within our little box? If we're all fated towards the same end of death--that doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't do all we can within our box to feel the most fulfilled we possibly can in life. Even if we are all ultimately going to die because we're on this big boat, we should go ahead and be main characters, perhaps even have some supporting roles here and there. Yes, there is the prevailing theme that we are all ultimately unimportant, but who says the end is everything? We can still have a blast from now up until the end. This is just what I'm choosing to take from the play on a more personal level (my apologies for deviating).
So yeah, I agree with what Bonita says about how all the extraordinary things we do in life amount to nothing in death--taking it within this context, we are insigificant little things, huh? But yet, I still can't help but feel that brief as these extraordinary things are, they are still extraordinary for those few transitory moments. Stoppard does make Ros and Guil two generally, very likeable fellows, aimless and muddled as they were. I mean, they were quite amusing, incredulous at times, yes, but still...amusing!
I just wanted to comment on Ros and Guil hearing the pipe "out of the void" (112). I'm pretty positive that this is an allusion to the very same pipe in Act 3, Scene 2 of Hamlet and the whole deal of people simply being "a pipe for Fortune’s finger/To sound what stop she please." That R & G weren't able to request a tune because Ros didn't see the point and they lost their "momentum" just seems to be the epitome of their lives. Not quite the go-getters there are we...
The play is definitely impressive and definitely dense with all sorts of philosophical treatments on the topic of life and death and such--not only this but it really was ridiculously amusing. I think when I'm older I'll want to go back and reread the play--perhaps every five years or so and see what new nuances and perceptions I'll pick up on in the text.
For Act 3 fate seems to start to play games with Ros and Guil. For exmaple when they read the letter, that was given to them by Claudius, it said that Hamlet was to be killed once they reached England. They read the letter a second time and it says that Ros and Guil are the ones who are now going to be killed. But the worst part is that they just said oh well and kept on going to England like they could not change anything. It was like they were using fate as an excuse for doing or not doing something. As if oh well it's fate and there's nothing we can do to change it. Even though Guil has a moment where he is saying that there must have been a point where we could have stopped. And there was! There were so many times. But since they just kept blaming fate till it was too late and where "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead."
My apologies Ms Clapp for it having been this long to finally get this blog up!!!
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