R & G Act II
So how's fate treated here? Discuss amongst yourselves...
posted by Ms. Clapp @ 4:00 PM
10 comments
Tuesday, November 28, 2006
Previous Posts
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- Q & A for 2.2 and 3.1
- Hamlet Goodies Culled From the Web
- A Fun Collection of Information on Topics Relating...
- Let's see those critical reasoning skills, kids!
- It's Almost That Time....
- Open Space
- The Gatekeepers
- Things Fall Apart
- The Remains of the Day
10 Comments:
In Act 2 the feeling of not being able to escape one's fate is still present. Guil says to Ros, "We come to our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered. (61)" One way that life could be viewed, from Guil's point of view, is fate has already paved your path and once you cross the bridge there is no going back because well it is fate. Since Guil has this feeling that what is going to happen will happen attitude about life when he and Ros are told to take Hamlet to England, even though they have a bad feeling that the situation may turn out bad for them in the end, they still go. Guil says at the end of the act, "I like to know where I am. Even if I don't know where I am, I like to know that. If we go there's no knowing. (95)" Even though Guil and Ros both have a bad feeling about the situation that they just got forced into doing they decided to go with it because they hole out for a glimmer of hope because even though they do not know what their fate is they believe, "anything could happen...(95)" They just hope that the "anything" turns out to be a good anything, even though we know that unfortunately going to England means their end.
I agree with Kate that the feeling of not being able to escape one's fate is still present in Act 2. There was a point in Act 2 when the Players were acting out Rosencrantz and Guildenstern's death and how it came about and in the end Rosencrantz and Guildenstern were like "I know you, don't I?" (82)This part reminds me of what Jill was talking about in class and how they were killed by their own treachery. Because they are so naive and confused all the time, they don't realize that they are ultimately causing their own death. Also this ties in to what Kate says about how they had a bad feeling about going, but they went anyways. Also when Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are looking for Hamlet and they talk about who to follow and which way to go, it doesn't really matter, because either way they will end up where they are suppose to be. Guil says that once "we cross our bridges...we burn them behind us." (61) In a way he is saying that our past is unchangable and our present and future would be exactly the same. Once we crossed the paths that were set before us, there is no way to change what is destined for us to do. Plus bridges only bring you to one place, therefore there is no choice, you just have to follow.
I think the most prevalent idea about fate that is presented in Act 2 is that no matter the course of a person’s life, his ultimate destiny, and that of everyone else, is death. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern discuss the idea of death, this thing so certain and yet at the same time so intangible, this “undiscovered country” that Hamlet alluded to, something that they can’t quite describe and are forced to equate with sleeping in a box. Yet it is omnipresent, the thing that they all must face in the end, as Rosencrantz contemplates, “…for all the compasses in the world, there’s only one direction, and time is the only measure” (72). Everyone is thus marching slowly toward a slow death. The play that occurs, "The Murder of Gonzago," also reinforces this idea, as the player declares, “Do you call that an ending?—with practically everyone still on his feet?” (79). The play is supposed to be a microcosm of life, and as such, the only ending is, as it is for everyone, death. The idea of fate’s dominating hand in the lives of the people and the play’s reflection of actual life is again reinforced when Guildenstern questions about who decides the people that are “marked for death,” to which the player responds ominously, “Decides? It is written” (80). Just as the outcome of a play is pre-decided, with the actors given no choice over the actions, so too are humans actors in a pre-ordained play of life, with no decisions over their actions and with their ending, death, already chosen for them. The most obvious portrayal of the play being a reflection of fate and life, however, can be seen when Rosencrantz and Guildenstern begin to realize that the spies in the play are actually representative of them, but no matter how much they lash out about how acting and plays are simply “cheap melodrama” (83) out of fear, there is nothing they can do to alter their fates or the fact that the play has presented what is to be their fates. The image I perceive of destiny from the second act and a continuation from the first act is that of everyone being a separate particle floating around the earth, blown by the winds of fate; sometimes these particles cross paths or bump into each other when their destinies are intertwined. However, there is never any way to make the particles cross paths, as Rosencrantz and Guildenstern discover whenever they desperately try to get anyone to come in contact with them by yelling out their names or the like. The characters enter in and out of the two men’s life when their fates dictate it; everyone’s fate is independent of each other (though of course all ultimate destinies end up being the same). To comment on Kate’s discussion about Rosencrantz and Guildenstern’s “glimmer of hope” that their fates may turn out all right in the end, it seems a little ironic to me that they still retain this hope, but perhaps it’s because the dramatic irony is hitting me full force by this point. It just seems that after they had seen the play and recognized, on some level, that those two spies were them and that everyone’s ultimate fate must be death, they would realize that their fates are not favorable. After all this, however, the two men still believe, or wish to believe, that they may in some way alter their destinies by trying to escape to another land, as if distance could separate them from the natural course of their lives.
First, I'd like to say that I agree with what Nina says about the play being a microcosm of life. I think a theme the play really explores is the whole concept of people acting pretty much all the time. The Player seems to be the character that makes a lot of comments particular to this topic. When he was telling Ros and Guil to "Think, in your head, now, think of the most...private...secret...intimate thing you have ever done secure in the knowledge of its privacy..." (63-64) I found myself stopping to think about his comment and how a lot of us only do things when we are alone and out of sight of other people. I mean, are we always acting when we are around others, and if yes, do we do so so much that we don't even have a costume to change into anymore (I couldn't find the page with the quote!) and we become what we once made ourselves seem. It seems to me that the fact that this play's characters are watching the dumbshow and seeing how, however eery, the characters in the play resemble themselves (Ros and Guil for instance, when they see that the two spies are wearing their coats) we are supposed to be realizing that the story within this play is unsettlingly close to our own lives. It's like a play within a play within a play! I don't know it just reminds me of that line--"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."
When the Player says that "we are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity what it lacks in style" I have to say that I somewhat agree. I also found the line "Events must play themselves out to aesthetic, moral, and logical conclusion" (79) an interesting one. Guil's statement that he prefers "art to mirror life" (81) seems to be the converse of the Player's statement that there is "a design at work in all art" (79).
Just as a side note, I think the play is ridiculously hilarious. I'm just going to highlight a few moments that I found hysterical: 81, when the Player tells the grappling lovers "All right, no need to indulge yourselves, from 81-82 when the Player is providing commentary during the mime and swinging everyone around, and of course, Alfred's nose picking.
Also! I'm wondering what you guys think about how the audience reacted when the Player arranged for the actual hanging to take place during a play.
Act 2 definately poses the idea that fate is inevitable and pre-destined. Ros and Guil's obviously have their life decided for them. I found the scene, in the play within the play, where Ros and Guil are mezmerized by the actors the play the spies in the play rather amusing. They pretty much saw their future played out in front of they.Also, I'm going to go ahead and agree with Tania(props to you) on her idea of Ros and Guil not being "be-ers" and simply going with the flow of things and never taking action. They sit around and wait for people to tell them what to do. Every so often they come up with plans on how to approach Hamlet but never putting their plans into action. This also ties in with Maggie's idea about how Ros and Guil talked about burning the bridge behind them. I liked what Maggie said about how it did not matter what they did because their fate was decided and no matter what they did they would still end up with the same future.
One last note. I feels bad for Ros and Guil because they are just floating around Elsinore doing whatever they are told only to be excecuted in the end.Poor old Chaps.
I thought everyone’s comments here were really insightful, especially Nina’s! I totally agree with her in that one’s ultimate fate is death. As in the plays, life’s ending is just a slaughterhouse with everyone ending up dead. Because it is a part of fate, it cannot be escaped. Such deaths, as the Player puts it, can be heroic, comical, slow, disgusting, etc. and especially ironic as the death of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern in which they hoisted their own petard.
I also agree with Maggie and Sandra in the fact that in this act, the presence of fate and predetermination are still strong and evident. Guildenstern says, “Wheels have been set in motion, and they have their own pace, to where we are…condemned” (60). He continues to say that each step in life is dictated and he acknowledges the presence of fate. However, recognizing that there is a fate makes Ros and Guil constantly wonder what they are SUPPOSED to be doing. They are always unsure if what they are doing is what they are supposed to do or they are often wasting their time idly because they feel that they can just sit around and wait for the stuff that’s supposed to happen, happen. On page 66, Guil questions the Player and asks him, “But for God’s Sake what are we supposed to do?!...But we don’t know…what to do with ourselves.”
I agree with those that said that the idea of fate being inevitable is present in Act 2. On page 66, the Player says to Ros and Guil that they "can't go through life questioning your situation at every turn," which is a good quote because he is saying that they cannot control what's going on, they can't do anything about it, and that they need to just go with the flow of life. Fate is inevitable and even Ros and Guil can't do anything to change the outcome of their lives.
The floating particles mention by Nina was a nice touch also, because that really describes Ros and Guil perfectly. They wander around aimlessly wondering what they are going to do next or why they are doing it. Although they do question why they are always summoned for these actions, they do not do anything to figure out why or change it, like Tania said when she mentioned them not being "do-ers."
Basically, GOOD JOB EVERYONE. HAHA
I think by now everyone understands that Act 2 is completely in your face with the inevitability of fate. I acknowledge the well-developed idea that both Ros and Guil are completely indecisive in their actions, scattered about by the wind of fate.
While skimming through the other posts, Janna's idea of a "play within a play within a play" caused me to realize the extreme scope of fate in this act. Ros and Guil watch as players just like themselves are sent to their imminent deaths. After considering this, I realized that in R&G Are Dead, the actors playing Ros and Guil must accept their roles and (fictionally) die. The actors, in reality, assigned to the roles of the players playing the foreshadowy Ros and Guil must also accept the role of dying. In all instances, the actors knowingly accept their roles no matter what the outcome is; and who cares, it's just acting, right? The constant imitation of death, mirrored through fictional and actual actors, enforces the idea of mortal fate.
I had to think about it for awhile, but fate is the determining factor when R&G debate which route they should take while looking for Hamlet. After wasting much time simply debating where they should search, fate intervenes and delivers Hamlet to R&G. On page 88, Ros assures Guil that Hamlet will come to them and is appalled by Hamlet's entrance into view; cosmic irony toys with Rose's expectations of reality.
What is wrong with Rosencrantz in this scene? I adore the way Stoppard has fleshed out he and Guildenstern. . . and I had to laugh at Jill's comment. Ros and Guil are totally more than friends.
- ros and guil attempt to change their fate. sometimes they even hatch plans to leave the room! but because fate is at work, they cannot go through with it.
- Ros and Guil seeing themselves killed in the dumbshow is really an interesting moment. It comments on how impossible it is for all people to see themselves objectively. Analyzing and evaluating situations is much easier than facing them head-on. Here, Ros and Guil are watching their fates play out before them, but cannot fathom its implications. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are able to analyze their situation, think about what is going on in Elsinore, ponder over death and eternity, and yet something so simple as a play flies right over their heads.
But then again, being faced with a prediction of your own demise is probably not something that you'd expect from a group of players, particularly ones like these.
I, futhermore, agree with Grace about Stoppard commenting on life's being meaningless unless someone else is watching. Like, "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it still make a sound?"
Also, I was kind of wondering what the point of Rosencrantz CONSTANTLY forgetting himself is. He's done it at least three times, and it's pretty strange.
I like Tania's idea that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are allowing themselves to be pushed around by other people. After all, they seem to have given up on trying to take control of their lives inferred by the statement "We have no control. None at all..." (pg 71) by Ros. This one statement seems to convey Rosencrantz's dejected state of mind and now, he is letting his life be controlled by others. True, fate is an overpowering concept, but Rosencrantz and Guildenstern do little to challenge it. They are very indecisive, even with a simple task. In choosing which direction to search for Hamlet, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are completely baffled. Overall, it is because of their indecisiveness and their inability to think for themselves that puts fate out of their hands. They allow fate to completely run their lives, even though they had seen their imminent death. With the play within the play, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern saw what was to happen to them, yet they did not pick up on it. Surely, something in their heads should have alerted them to the scenes they were seeing, but again, they were merely letting fate take over their lives.
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