Response to Class Discussion on Mrs. D
So here's your place to post your thoughtful, insightful, carefully considered response to and development of a comment or idea that was brought up in class today. Please be sure to begin with the comment that inspired you (and give credit, if you remember who said it). Responses may be somewhat informal (the use of "I" is permitted), but, since this is for others to read, please pay attention to writing conventional English (unless you've discovered your inner e.e. cummings, but if so, be prepared to discuss your technique!).
I look forward to reading them! Your homework on Thursday will be to read all of them, so feel free to check in over the next day or two.
posted by Ms. Clapp @ 5:40 PM
39 comments
39 Comments:
As discussed today in class, the whole novel Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf occurs in one day, representing an entire life span. The novel begins with the line, "Mrs. Dalloway said she would buy the flowers herself." (3) By opening with Mrs. Dalloway partaking in an action involving flowers, Woolf alerts the reader that the start of the novel is also the birth of a life. Flowers bloom in the spring of a new year, symbolizing newly sprung life. Also usually representing birth is morning; got iy id quite literally the birth of a new day. As the novel progresses, time goes on slowly with character development. Just as significant as the symbolic birth is the symbolic death: the novel ends with evening and a literal death. Near the story's conclusion it is reported at Mrs. Dalloway's party that Septimus committed suicide. It's emphasized by Woolf several times: "There was an embrace of death...But that man killed himself." (184-185) The repetition of Septimus's death concludes the novel suitably,for jsut as the day cycled, life cycled which is seen in the character's thoughts throughout Mrs. Dalloway.
So I’m not really sure if anyone really brought up this point, but I wanted to bring it up after someone commented about the fact that the book takes place in one day, trying to explain a lifetime, (which Taylor just commented on). But I wanted to connect it to the hours (not the book) that pass during the day.
Throughout Mrs. Dalloway, Virginia Woolf mentions the time at various occasions. She informs us of the hour when Big Ben in London strikes. One thought I have about the passing hours comes from the book The Hours. Cunningham portrays the hours passing by as something positive, as a means to be happy. In Woolf’s letter to her husband, she lists the assets of her relationship, love being one and the hours another.
But in Mrs. Dalloway, the clock striking reminds me of the passage of time, how it reminds the character of their ends. Because the book takes place in one day but is supposed to explain a lifetime, the hours passing by remind Mrs. Dalloway of how little time she has to finish preparing for her party. Also, each hour seems to open another chapter in her “day long” life. At the end of one’s life, time seems to move by faster, the clock “striking-one, two, three” (150). People were doing things, falling asleep, “but the clock went on striking, four, five, six” (150).
Woolf almost named her book The Hours. Although Cunningham portrays the hours as something slightly more positive, in the context of Mrs. Dalloway, the hours, this reminder of the time that has passed, reminds the characters that their deadline, their end is each time an hour closer.
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Hello.
“Life without boundaries is harder than life with boundaries” (Ms. Clapp)
This quote really got me thinking deeply about Septimus’ death and Clarrisa’s reaction to it. When I had first read about Clarissa’s reaction to Septimus’ death, I didn’t really piece together her thoughts to represent an ultimate feeling. However, after hearing that quote, Clarissa’s curiosity in the following passage all began to make sense.
“He had killed himself—but how? Always her body went through it first, when she was told, suddenly, of an accident; her dress flamed, her body burnt. He had thrown himself from a window. Up had flashed the ground; through him, blundering, bruising, went the rusty spikes. There her lay with a thud, thud, thud in his brain, and then a suffocation of blackness. So she saw it. But why had he done it?” (184).
“Death was defiance”(184) Woolf wrote. This sentence sends out the message that death--committing suicide--represents doing what you want, not listening to someone else, having complete control over your life. This is something hard to do, since “…one’s parents giving it into one’s hands, this life, to be lived to the end, to be walked with serenely” (185). However, stopping your body from living, when it could live on for years, appears to be something that intrigues Clarissa. She viewed death as “an attempt to communicate”(184), a way to reveal one’s independence, since you could just live life like you were made to do, or you could take risks and try a different path.
The fact that Clarissa was already a kind of emotionally saddened person could help explain why she looked at something like suicide with interest.
That's all.
I'd like to discuss the line that tied us up so much in class in our last discussion: "But this young man who had killed himself- had he plunged holding his treasure? "If it were now to die, 'twere now to be most happy," she had said to herself once, coming down in white."(184)
We also started to discuss this line during class today before the bell rang; I might have brought it up but I am not sure (please correct me if I am stealing your credit here!).
I find this line so interesting because it is so reflective of Mrs. Dalloway and Septimus's feelings on death throughout the novel. On this page, after Septimus's death is announced to her, Mrs. Dalloway wonders if the man dies with his "treasure" and then immediately thinks of when she was young and mentally quoted Shakespeare on death.
By wondering if Septimus died with his "treasure," Mrs. Dalloway contemplates whether Septimus killed himself before his doctors had taken away from him his own mind and personality (his self). Woolf's diction here ("had killed himself") makes Septimus both the subject and object of the sentence suggesting that Mrs. Dalloway took notice of the "young man's" control over his circumstances.
The next juxtaposing sentence, the quote from the past, is Mrs. Dalloway recalling the time in her life when she was most happy. Mrs. Dalloway said this quote to herself when she was "coming down in white," supporting the claim that this was the time she had peaked in her happiness and that the rest of her life was downhill. One could make the claim that by juxtaposing the two sentences, Woolf is suggesting that Mrs. Dalloway is a bit envious that Septimus took his life before he also started going completely down hill. Though Septimus is by no means 'happy' with his life, he ends it before any more of his mind and self is taken away from him.
This can be closely related to the character of Virginia in The Hours who kills herself to avoid losing herself to her mental issues and demons.
As the class previously discussed and agreed upon, the use of having the whole story of Mrs. Dalloway occurring in one day is representative of an entire life span. Like how Taylor mentioned before, the flowers blooming at the beginning symbolize birth, and like Ashley said in class, “[Mrs. Dalloway] is intrigued by the idea of death.” Death is something that is uncontrollable, something you can't always necessarily plan. By constantly referring to Septimus as a young man, Virginia Woolfe reminds us that he's the young soldier that returned home, traumatized by the war. By constantly referring to his youth, it makes his death all the more poignant, considering that unlike some of the other characters in the tale, who are nearing the end of their soon to be calm lives, he still had much to live for, much potential.
As Mrs. Clapp mentioned, life with boundaries is a lot easier than one without, something I agree upon, if somewhat reluctantly. I believe that idea connects with what Ashley said earlier, about Mrs. Dalloway’s seemingly odd fascination of death; while her life at the moment does have a few boundaries, death is the greatest binding of them all, considering once you are dead, you cannot do anything else; granted, while you cannot do or feel anything good, you’re given the peaceful thought that you will never mess up or grow sad again.
I wanted to touch on something that I think Dario said. He said something along the lines of killing yourself while your young before you get old and miserable. Meaning that he would die young and successful
I believe this is the concept that intrigues Mrs. Dalloway. That is why at first when she hears of the news she thinks “Oh! In the middle of my party, here’s death...” (183). I don’t believe that this thought has ever occurred to Mrs. Dalloway. She is so wrapped up in her own life and parties, planning and entertaining that she would never imagine killing herself in her youth. She has embraced her old age. I think she really just can’t understand why Septimus would do it.
This brings up the comment “-had he plunged holding his treasure? “If it were now to die, ‘twere now be most happy,”. I believe that hear Mrs. Dalloway is asking was Septimus completely content with what he had done with his life. Was he in a good enough place to say I’ve come to the earth and made my mark and I can leave satisfied, before I ruin it with old age and possibly mistakes that I can make that could leave me with nothing. I can get out now with my youth and self satisfaction intact. Mrs. Dalloway herself wonders this. Had it been her time to go could she be completely satisfied with what she had accomplished. She now in her 50’s is at an older stage in her life, had seen many days (or life cycles as this book symbolizes). Her curisouty makes her question why she never had wondered getting out at in earlier age in life.
I want to make a comment about Marissa comment when she talked about death being something you control. I think that Septimus lost complete control. I think that his suicide was an act of showing control however, i don't think that Septimus had this control, i think that his act of suicide was his cry out to the world proving that he had control over his life but he showed cowardliness, like Dr. Holmes had said. I think that Clarissa not committing suicide showed that she is really strong and in control because she chooses to live and be out there. Even though her life is controlled by the aspects of her life i feel like she in her own way does fully take control, like her party for example, she throws one and she runs it, shes out there talking to people, being herself.
Id also like to talk comment on the whole time aspect, i think that the time in both the hours and Mrs.Dalloway is a very crucial thing. Even though Mrs.Dalloway was just held in one day i think that everything felt really rushed through the book. Like she and all the other thoughts of Peter and Richard were rushed. They were trying to let it out but in such a controlled manner. I can't remember who said that the character's didn't communicate what they actually felt and i completely agree with that, because i felt they were so pressed with what they were saying that they didn't really speak the truth of what they truly wanted to say. Which brings back to the time situation where every ticking second is what counts. Both in the hours with Mrs. Brown and Virgina Wolf they always seemed like they didn't have enough hours in the day, whether it was baking a cake or writing a novel. I think that the time should be discussed more. I feel like there's a bigger thing there with time.
As we said in class, Woolf's choice for Septimus's death is significant. Also, Septimus's death serves as communication to Clarissa. The building represents the suffocation that both Septimus/Clarissa face from society. While Clarissa was going through Septimus's death in her head, she "parts the curtains; she looks" (185) and she sees an "old lady staring straight at her" (186). The elderly woman represents society watching her, as she upholds the "perfect hostess" image. Holmes and Bradshaw seem to represent society, as they continuously tell Septimus what he "must" do, and for the most part keeps him inside his house. By flinging himself out of his house serves the idea of freedom, as Dario said right before the end of class, by breaking himself away from the being controlled by society. As for Clarissa, is it too late for her to free her own self? Although she cannot preserve that happiness of youth, like Septimus, is it better to just continue on her life like that even if she is beyond she youth?
I believe it was Kevin (sorry if I'm wrong) who said that the character's didn't communicate what they actually felt. Mrs. Dalloway seems to look back on her life and doubt some of her choices, marrying Richard and not Peter is an example. Though she has these doubts she goes on to plan her party and buy flowers, everyday things. Septimus on the other hand is isolated from the world, watching the people around him and speaking honestly about them and the cruelty of the world. And because he was in no control of his life he chose to regain control, killing himself.
In The Hours, Virginia decides to create Septimus as, "someone strong of body but frail-minded; someone with a touch of genius , of poetry, ground under by the wheels of the world, by war and government, by doctors; a someone who is, technically speaking, insane, because that person sees meaning everywhere" (The Hours211). With Septimus' suicide Mrs. Dalloway learns to accept her life and to live on loving, "London, loving her life of ordinary pleasures" ( The Hours 211).
well Marisa beat to the what ms.clapp said about an uncontrolled life is more frightening than a controlled life and I agree with that. I mean as kids we grow up and depend and sometimes EVEN think our parents are going to have every answer to our question or every solution to our problems, because they have been alive longer and have more knowledge.
Now that were becoming adults, its completely different. We literally sometimes have to think twice and its harder too because were leaving high school so every decision we make is to our future. Thats like one of the biggest things that stuck to me in this dicussion.
I agree with Ana also I don't think Septimus chose to kill himself, I think he lost complete control. I mean the guy was mental from war. Has people there is only so much we can take before something snaps in us and for Septimus in his mind he thought he needed to kill himself. People who haven't gone through wicked dramatic stuff like Septimus don't usually think about committing sucuide (and I spelled that completely wrong) or telling people to kill themselves. I think Septimus killing himself was a way to get away from the life he was living. I think he wanted control defintely because everyone around was making every choice for him, but he defintely wanted control, but him being a little loopy he thought that death was the only way out.
Well, I was originally planning to write about Mrs. Clapp's "Life without boundary is much harder than life with boundary" quote, but seeing as Marissa already discussed this topic, I think I will elaborate on my mentioning of Death as a form of communication.
In the discussion, it was brought up many times whether Mrs. Dalloway envied Septimus for killing himself, or was happy for him, or whatever the case. Personally, I can't see anyone being happy over another person's death, however I don't think it is completely rational to try and analyze Clarissa's view on the death itself. What I think is more important is what the death symbolized to her.
Throughout the entire book, as the point of views shifts and constantly comes back to Clarissa, it appears to me that she has the deepest of the reflections on life, and notices that she herself can not communicate in all the ways that she needs to (for example, not being able to tell her "hatred" (126) of Miss Kilman to her face). As I said in class, it appears as though the entire book consists many of thoughts (it has very little dialogue when you really think about it) and this itself shows how introverted the characters are with their thoughts and emotions. Even when Miss Kilman is hurt by Clarrisa's laughter, she constantly thinks about her own faults, but never shares any of these thoughts with Elizabeth, only making small talk conversation like "Are you going to the party to-night?".
This shows how much more complex the human mind is than meets the surface, and just because you are talking to someone, does not mean you are understanding what is going on in their mind. I think this can also relate to the poem we recently read, The Love Song by Prufrock, where miscommunication is a key factor in the characters extended thoughts.
Personally, I feel as though Clarissa is aware of all of these things that I just stated, and this is why she acts the way she does upon Septimus' death, because he was able to communicate his emotions, his detest to others. She does say after all, that "there was an embrace in death" (184). This shows Septimus' embrace to express himself, unlike the world (and all of the other characters) around him.
I’ll attempt to go further on Dario’s thought in the discussion that Death is glamorized.
Mrs. Dalloway’s and Septimus’ perspectives glamorize death and what it means to die.
I struggled with the idea of Death as being an “embrace” rather than an escape. What does it truly mean to die when one chooses the path of suicide? Isn’t the act of suicide letting go of the physical world? In class, we mentioned how at a time, it was heroic to die young but was Septimus’ death a righteous act?
At the moment what comes to mind as righteous is Sydney Carton’s death in A Tale of Two Cities, and his epic lines, “It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.”
To my surprise this quote works well with Septimus. After the war, he felt as if he had lost his identity in the physical world. He was unstable and his condition was agonizing to watch. His death is a figurative “rest,” a better rest than he had ever known. Like Carton’s death, it is an embrace of himself, in a society where he was viewed as unstable but his tragic death, embraces himself.
After Septimus plunges from the window, Dr. Holmes shouts, “The coward!”
From weighing perspectives, Death is an escape from something yet Mrs. Dalloway perceives Death as an “embrace” rather than escape.
As Danny mentioned, Septimus’ death is an “embrace to express himself, unlike the world (and all of the other characters) around him.” I agree with this idea, Septimus did not let go of what he had (Rezia) for “she was with him”(Woolf 149) and his rationality for that was also with him.
I disagree with what Ash and Analu said about Septimus's death. I see that Septimus, while he is shell-shocked, doesn't mean he's lost control of his life, doesn't mean that he had lost his choice of free mental will. To say he does would suggest that whatever inflicted Septimus is indeed an infliction, that he is not unhealthy, not normal, purely dysfunctional, and is in need of help. And this mindset, that Septimus is not "normal" and therefore must be "righted" back into society is what Sir William Bradshaw is all about. It's to "cure" his patients into his way of thinking, his "sense of proportion." If we view Septimus as abnormal and weird it's on the premise that he's not like everyone else and our urge to help, if at all, would be to re-initialize him into our society, our sense of proportion, our way of life. What we see the problem is instead of making him see beauty in the strangest of ways, we make him love tea and parties, make him see beauty as only in paintings and buildings and no where else.
To tie this in with Mrs. Dalloway, Septimus's careful suicide was a message that said he'd rather keep himself as whoever he is till his death than be subjected to the "sense of proportion" of others. Dario mentioned before class how there seemed to be an element of rape in Sir William Bradshaw's way of "curing" his patients, or in this case mental submission. Similarly on Mrs. Dalloway's side, who seems to be living throughout the rest of her life chasing the shadows of her greatest moments in life (which seems to be her youth, the moments where she seemed to be most happy), she could have died then instead of slowly dying inside.
I would like to further Dario’s analysis on the quote "But this young man who had killed himself- had he plunged holding his treasure? " In a way, I feel like Septimus’ suicide is envied by Clarrisa, not because of the act itself, but because of the courage needed to for it to happen. Clarrisa also envies Septimus because he is able to perserve his treasure (his soul) while she chooses to live a safe life that she does not fully want. She thinks of the Shakespeare line from Othello as a way to show her regret for making some of the decisions she did in her past.
I also found it very interesting how after this scene the point of view shifts to Peter and never back to Clarissa again and she is only seen through other‘s eyes.
Septimus’ suicide I also felt was very ironic. I feel Virginia Woolf created him in order to show the two paths that Clarrisa could have taken and their outcomes. In order to perserve the soul something physical must be taken as a cost. In Septimus’ case it was his life, for Clarissa, it would probably be her financial and social security. However if the individual wanted a more extroverted life, their passion or soul would have to be compromised as seen with Clarissa.
In class and in other people's comments, they are talking about how Septimus' death is a form of communication. I feel that with killing himself , he was making a choice and telling people around him that he was not happy in life and found a way to escape it.
I think that Septimus chose his death as a form of communication, but his death includes a mixture of him losing his control on life like other commenters have said. I don't think that it could completely be one because like Kevin said, he has an affliction and needs help but he still has his free will.
Another thing we talked about in class was if Mrs. Dalloway was jealous of Septimus being able to kill himself or not. Katie said in class that Mrs. Dalloway was just envious of the fact that Septimus could express himself with his death and not care about what others thought of him, unlike Mrs. Dalloway who wants everyone to think that she is perfect and beautiful. I also think Mrs. Dalloway was just intrigued by the fact that death was coming to someone at such a young age when she was much older and has lived through all the trials of life.
I'd like to touch upon what a lot of people in here have already touched upon; lack of communication and death. Like a lot of others have said, death is a form of communication and Septimus was trying to communicate with the rest of the world. I have to agree taht Septimus's death was a way of expressing himself. I still think Mrs. Dalloway is envious of SEptimus that he was able to express himself in taht way and she is "forced to stand by in her evening dress". She has no choice and she is envious of Septimus who has a choice. I also found it ironic that Septimus chose death to express himself and to communicate, since when you are dead, you are no longer able to physically communicate with the world.
The subject I wanted to discuss was that it is scarier to take control of your own life, with no limits, than to have your life controlled with limits because you wouldn’t be responsible for it. It was discussed that there was emphasis on Septimus’s young age.
I agreed with saying that Septimus parallels Mrs. Dalloway’s character. After Septimus commits suicide, we see that Mrs. Dalloway in a sense, grows old, accepting her life as a hostess. In that, she accepts the less scary way, living a life with limitations. Septimus, however, did not accept the life of limitations. Since Septumis was young, deciding for his own life, but because of war, he has shellshock, which limits his life. I think that both want to have a life without limitations, but their decisions were different. Septimus, for the first time, in the longest time, he controlled his own life. Even though he didn’t want to die, he wanted to keep what he had and as a result, killed himself. Mrs. Dalloway, in contrast, didn’t kill herself, keeping her life, but accepting her life as it is. She seems to know what is going on about everything, but she doesn’t seem to care. “Death is a choice.”
With Septimus's death, many ideas are brought up. It was apparent that his "treatment" had restricted the man of his free will, leading to the moment of his suicide. However, it seems that only Bradshaw misunderstands the reason for Septimus's action. Mrs. Dalloway wonders if he died with his "treasure" and immediately thinks of when she was young and refers to Shakespeare on death.
In class we spent time on identifying what exactly Mrs. Dalloway meant by "treasure", and it was agreed that it was his free will. The idea of having treasure at death seems glorious, even in the context of suicide. Dalloway's thoughts glorify his action which contradicts society's idea of the manner conveyed by Bradshaw. When he witnesses Septimus jump he labels him a "Coward". However, Rezia and Dalloway share completely different insight on the matter than Septimus being a "coward". Rezia understood his actions, Mrs. Dalloway views him as a hero. I admit that it is hard to view Septimus's choice as honorable, but then again having to deal with the brainwashing from his doctor. Choosing to jump meant that he was listening to himself, and chose to act the way he wanted to.
I wanted to comment about Lily was talking about how Septimus parrallels Mrs. Dalloway and I agree with that. Septimus chose to go to war, but which Mrs.Dalloway she doesnt have much of a choice. Like Ms. Clapp said during that time women didnt have many choices to do stuff. Mrs.Dalloway could really just plan parties.
I wanted to respond what Katie said about how time is slow until after a death. I agree with that. In small groups today, we talked about why Big Ben and time was mentioned so often. We thought it was to bring the character from daydreaming back to reality, that when you are lost in thought, time goes by quicker, or its like the "time flies by when you're having fun" quote. Then we realized that every time Big Ben was mentioned, the subject of the party was mentioned. For example, on page 48, "Remember my party, remember my party, said Peter Walsh as he stepped down the street, speaking to himself rhythmically, in time with the direct downright sound of Big Ben striking the half-hour." Everything did seem to take forever to happen before Septimus’ suicide, which was probably why, in my opinion, why the book was so boring through most of it, because it seemed to drag on and on. After his suicide, time is mentioned more frequently, and as Katie said, to remind the character of their end, which I think is the end for Clarissa, as she accepts the life of Mrs. Dalloway.
As discussed previously, a recurring idea in the novel is that dying younger is intriguing to Mrs. Dalloway, and almost desired by her, rather than growing old and miserable.
As it is almost idealistic and glamorous to Mrs. Dalloway, dying young has become glamorized in our culture. Since, Ms. Clapp brought up the song "My Generation" by the Who, I was pondering this "super star" appeal of living fast and dying young and found a few other examples evident in pop culture.
The death of the original Catwoman, and singer of the holiday classic "Santa, Baby", Eartha Kitt, died a few weeks ago. She was elderly when she passed on, and for this reason her death didn't cause that much of a stir in the media. However, the deaths of younger celebrities are given much more hype--such as the deaths of Heath Ledger, Anna Nicole Smith, and most recently John Travolta's son Jett. The idea of dying young glamorous is not some new trend of the 2000's either, for in the 1980's Billy Joel sang a song titled "Only the Good Die Young". Some people believe this faithfully; as seen through the deaths that people remember.
Think of famous people that you know have died, and how they died: Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. They all had their lives taken prematurely, without reaching old age.
Why has dying young become something that one might actually want to achieve, rather than living life for as long as you can, as to fulfill it and live up to your potential?
Responding to TMLombard’s blog, People who die young are idolized because they left the world too soon. Having something happen to you that is not expected, such as dying at a young age, is what makes others interested. As people get old, passing away is a part of life, sadly. With a person dying young, death is the enemy and the young person is someone who was treated unfairly.
I don’t feel that people want to die soon, but it’s kind of like leaving while people still want you, rather than leaving unwanted. An example relating to the celebrity reference could be with celebrities who come out at the top of the industry, and they slowly disconnect with the audiences, leading to the lack of fame….like child-star actors. They were once at the height of their fame, but are now gone and forgotten. They may start out at 16 and their fame will thrive until they hit the age of 26, then they begin to live regular lives where no one really cares what they are up to, and they become boring for the population—someone seeking attention that no one wants to give. However, if that child star were to have passed away during the height of their fame, the population would be mortified. People would look at the situation as someone who was idolized, making crowds roar, all of a sudden being gone. This leads to generation after generation viewing the celebrity as a hero.
I feel that this is why Septimus’ death was of grave interest to Clarissa—he had done something to himself…committed suicide. He was NOT supposed to die…death for someone at his age would be viewed as unfair. Septimus brought death to himself, which makes people curious about him…viewing him as someone who went against the norm and what was expected (to live a long life), looking to do what he wanted, what made him happy.
However, I believe that the views on Septimus’ death and the death of the young celebrities mentioned is different, since Septimus took his own life, and the others had their lives taken away from them.
I want to respond to VallyGirl09 i don't know who that is sorry :-D
But i wanted to comment on what she was talking about, youth and death. I think that when you are young, you are at the beginning of your life and it's almost moronic to commit suicide that early in your youth. Even though in class people agreed that youth is the best time to commit suicide because they refuse to get older, it's also the most stressful time in someone's life, which I agree with. However, I believe that when you are young like Septimus supposedly was that suicide is out of the question. I believe that suicide can appeal more to a person past her 40's then someone that young and unexperienced. Because they have not experienced enough they are throwing it all away, but someone who has dealt with a life of control and dullness like Mrs. Dalloway has a bigger reason to do it. Even though Speptmis went to war and had lived life, he didn't give life after that a chance. He didn't help himself, like when Dr. Holmes wanted to help him he refused to get better in a way. All he ever did was talk of death and how things were bad for him. So he choose to be this way, he let himself get into that position and he threw it all away instead of getting better. I don't believe that is something to be envious about, like the way Mrs. Dalloway envied him. I feel it was more like everyone said the act of death that really intrigued her but not what Septimus' doing that made her proud. Death is so final and I don't believe that Mrs. Dalloway really wants a final end.
When said Mrs. Dalloway thinks that Septimus could have died happy, i felt that he did not die happy because if someone is happy with this act of death then, they have lost their minds at this point and don't know what they are doing. Septimus felt hopeless and without control and therefore he commited this act. So when Mrs. Dalloway insinuates that he could have died happy with the treasure which was taking control for once, i don't believe that he was happy doing this at all. I think that he felt he had no way out and no way of ever feeling happy. I want to believe that Septimus was leaving with the treasure that was taking control of something in his life by taking his life away but it doesn't tie in with life itself, death is uncontrollable and when you decide to take it away, you are losing full control.
As a response to Dario the affect of Septimus's death on Clarissa is significant to the meaning of death in the novel. Although death is the end of a person's life, the affect does not end. Instead one death causes a domino affect. Evans's death has caused the death of Septimus's soul which makes him shield himself from the people around him, including his own wife, Rezia. The contrast in weather between England and Italy can represent Septimus's personality, which makes Rezia gloomier. Then, Septimus's death affects Clarissa's thoughts and view on her own life.
Also, Woolf talks about death in nature. In The Hours, her family discovers a bird that dies and they lay it in Woolf's backyard. In Mrs. Dalloway, she talks about wishing to die like a bird. As these birds die, they continue to help life thrive, through its decomposition. Just as Septimus dies, he almost reminds Clarissa why she lives. That every hour is important.
I would like to respond to Marissa's blog entry where she responded to Mrs. Clapp's statement about boundaries. In her entry, Marissa says that Septimus may have comitted suicide in an attempt to "completely control" his own life. When reading this entry just now, I suddenly remembered our conversation in class today with the Death Group. When trying to find some statement to relate all of teh death instances in the book, we realized that Mrs. Dalloway often times emphasizes how one death does not end a person's existence entirely, and their being still is here "in spirit" to cause further action.
One example of this is how even after Evans is killed, Septimus still thinks of his death and it slowly beings to drive him crazy. In the end, Septimus kills himself due to the many deaths he sees during the war, and the lack of feeling it caused him. Evans' death being the most specific of the soldiers' deaths, it is seen that Evans had an effect on Septimus even after his death. The same is seen with Mrs. Dalloway and Rezia after Septimus kills himself. It allows them to have a deeper understanding of life, for they understand why it is he killed himself.
To further this idea, we also noticed that other times death was mentioned, nature was also mentioned. As we know, when nature dies, it does not just disapear. It has lasting effects on the world, and pieces of it still survive, rotting plants acting as fertilizer for example, contributing to the betterment of nature.
So how this related to Marissa'scomment was that, if Septimus' death really was influenced by Evans', then does this meam Septimus had complete control over his own life/ death? What I am saying is, if Septimus had not seen Evans die, had not gone to war, would he really have been in control of his life, and how are we suppose to have measured that? A question that goes along with that is, does Mrs Dalloway have control of her own life? And how can we tell?
Referring to Kevin’s earlier comment, I definitely agree with what he stated about Septimus’s death; it wasn’t that Septimus jumped because he’s lost control of his life. Rather, Septimus jumped in order to die while he still had control over his life. After all, Septimus did state before he jumped that “He did not want to die. Life was good” (Dalloway 149). Rather, I think Septimus jumped in order to die happy, in a sense. Septimus knew that if he continued to live, that perhaps Dr. Holms and Sir William Bradshaw would force him to live a life he didn’t want, and a miserable one at that. I had not noticed the potential element of rape, but thinking back I can see how there is a seeming underlying tone that hints to this; more, extreme (for lack of a better word) people may believe that raping would cure people of certain “illnesses,” such as homophobia or use it as a way to enforce their ideas, by turning their own bodies against them.
The only thing I would have to debate (if ever only slightly) against is the idea that Sepitmus was entirely normal, rather than being abnormal/weird as others thought him to be. In all honesty, there really is no such thing as normal in certain perspectives, and while I do believe that Septimus wasn’t as unhealthy as everyone believed him to be, I do think that perhaps something was wrong with him; most likely post traumatic stress disorder, but it was interesting to see how even his wife Rieza in a way finally accepted his attitude, seeing as at the end she tried to shield him from Dr. Holmes from coming up.
I’d like to expand on Rorschach’s expansion of my expansion (ha-ha). Death really is glamorized in Mrs. Dalloway in the sense that it is both talked about very frequently and seen more positively than one expects.
However, you said that you “struggled with the idea of Death as being an embrace rather than an escape.” I think Death in Mrs. Dalloway can be seen as both. Though it may not be the noblest of acts as many were arguing, suicide and taking control of one’s life in the novel are synonymous. Mrs. Dalloway wants to take control of her past so she may change it, and I believe that this is part of the reason she does not commit suicide (suicide cannot change the past.) Septimus on the other hand wishes to take control of his present and future which was being imperialized by Sir William and his other doctors. So, I would thus agree that his rest was achieved through this taking of control. For this reason I think that what Septimus did cannot really be classified as either heroic or not heroic; it certainly was not done to be a heroic act.
I also really like the quotation from A Tale of Two Cities, one of my favorite books, and you are correct, very fitting.
The interesting part about Death is that Septimus uses it to “communicate.” Septimus says that “communication is happiness. Communication is health.” The irony lies in the fact that Septimus cannot communicate and is left “talking to himself.” So Communication allows for happiness and health and it is only reached for Septimus through his Death… My conclusion would then be that Septimus’s death allowed him to have happiness and health (mentally.)
Wow, it took me a while to get through all of these comments. But anyway, I see that we're all talking about death here, so why not expand on that. I'd like to say that I'm responding to one person, but by now all of our ideas are influenced by other people's comments. But I guess I will reply to Danny's comment, or just expand upon the subject.
We were both in the "death" group today and our basic thesis was that death isn't the end of someone's "being." This is actually one of Clarissa's theories, that one must seek the things that complete a person in life to truly understand his/her complete being. As an example, Clarrisa’s person was not just her in her body. Parts of her whole were found in other “people who completed them,” such as her family, and Peter Walsh (153). Not only the people, but “even the places” that tell so much of Clarissa’s life, such as Bourton (153).
In the second part of Clarissa's theory, she connects it to death (from Peter's point of view) saying "with her horror of death…the part of us which appears, are so momentary compared with the other, the unseen part of us, which spreads wide, the unseen might survive” (153). Clarissa implies that the parts of people that were attached to other people and other places survive, meaning that some part of the dead person also survives. In Clarissa’s fright, or even curiosity of death, she finds some comfort in knowing that parts of her will survive, in Bourton and in the people closest to her.
So these thoughts bring me back to Septimus's death. Are there any parts of him left? After Septimus died, he wasn't instantly gone. People talked about him, his wife was now a widow, etc. Although his physical body is gone, he's still a part of the other things that made him whole.
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I would like to reply to Katie’s comment on the meaning and effect of time throughout the book. I would have to agree that time, the striking of Big Ben and the passing of the hours, remind the characters of how quickly their life is passing. Time also is relative to the person. For example, time can be stretch out in a person’s mind because of the quantity of thoughts that character is thinking. I have also noticed that whenever Big Ben strikes, Clarrisa always mentions her party afterwards, perhaps in order to compensate how much time she lost thinking. This also shows Clarrisa’s realization of her old age which has to be softened by the talk of a party to make her seem like she still has purpose in her life.
Another example of where time is relative in the park where only Peter and Rezia notice the old women singing an “ancient song”. I feel like this women embodies time and that no one else but those to notice her because no else is effected by time to that certain extent. It calms Rezia because it is a song about the continuity and endurance of life while Peter only pities the women.
Responding to Katie’s thoughts of time (the hours), I connected time with a positive idea of life. Woolf generates constant interludes of death but there are great examples of life in Mrs. Dalloway. Woolf intended to make her characters older because at the apex of their life, they could reflect further back to their livelihood as youths. However, as we witness the hours (time), revelry is still present in their life. On the surface their lives may seem dull but there is still risk present each hour. For example, Richard thinks, “[after all these years], he doubted his own taste. But he wanted to come in holding something. Flowers? Yes, flowers, since he did not trust his taste in gold; any number of flowers, roses, orchids, to celebrate what was, reckoning things as you will, an event; grasping his red and white roses together he set out. The time comes when it can’t be said; one’s too shy to say it, he thought, to say straight out in so many words (whatever she might think of him), holding out his flowers, “I love you.” (Woolf 114-115).
Unlike in their youth where the phrase “I love you” was a common everyday thing, Richard becomes self conscience because at his age, at their age, what would she think of him? Like in T.S Eliot’s Prufrock, “Do I dare? Do I dare?” is often asked. There he was at the prime of his life, “walking to his house to tell Clarissa that he loved her. Happiness is this he thought,”(Woolf 117) the idea of risk is ecstasy, an indulgence.
Im going to expand on Dario and Rorschach comments about death.
Throughout the book death takes on a transformation. From the beginng death is given its stereotypical, horrible image. However at the end when death is brought up at Mrs. Dalloway's party, it is given another outlook. Mrs. Dalloway decides that there is an embrace to death. Death is a way to be able to free your self from the demons that you have hidden inside of you. Also the idea of death as a communicator is interesting becasue usually after a suicide people, begin to find out what was really bothering the person that commits it.Had people known from the beginng most likely that person would now kill themselves. I think that calling it a communicator is a perfect name.
I don't exaclty however agree with death being a hero. Mrs. Dalloway is perfect content with her life. She although has not exaclty broadened her horizons, she is content with herself. So death as a hero is kind of a stretch. I think of death in Mrs. Dalloway as more of and expression of feelings. Septimus himself i believe was his own hero, becasue he had the courage to actually free himself. Death just allowed him to do it.
Reading all these comments about death was getting a little depressing, then came Victor with his comment on life. (thank you) So I'd like to expand on that.
Today, I was also in the 'life' discusssion group, and while there is a lot of repetition of death throughout the novel, there is also plenty of references to life that are significant to the overall meaning of the book. Victor wrote, "Woolf intended to make her characters older because at the apex of their life, they could reflect further back to their livelihood as youths." and in addition to that, not only are they are able to reflect on their past, they wonder what their purpose and the meaning of their lives are. Clarissa finds herself wondering why Richard or Peter can't seem to appreciate or understand her parties, when to her, its her world. She starts to question herself, "what did it mean to her, this thing she called life"(122), after all, she was not well-educated, or talented, however, her parties were "her gift"(122). Her life has amounted to only that, and essentially, it is the only thing she has to offer to the world. However, in contrast to Septimus and the way he chooses to deal with his life, she decides to live, and to deal.
Which brings me to my next point, is just 'sucking it up', and living the same as being strong?
I remember we discussed earlier in class the other day whether Septimus committing suicide was something that should be looked at as honorable/strong/heroic, or if Mrs. Dalloway's choice to keep living was.
Okay, bear with me, but it reminded me of an episode on Buffy where before she was about to die, she tells her sister to "Be strong, and live." Then she jumps off a platform in order to save the world, again, and dadada. Anyways, it makes me wonder, is living being strong?
I feel that Septimus, even in his post traumatic stressed head, was stronger. He took the chance to take control of his life and control his own destiny, because he felt that he had already lost control of it. He tried to bear with it as much as he could, but he felt his insanity taking over him and was aware of his mentality slipping away, and felt that by sacrificing physically, he'd still die with dignity and knowing that he held a grasp over his own fate.
I'd like to respond to Rorschach's and jmama's posts, who both developed the idea of life and whether living it was dangerous and heroic.
Clarissa mentioned that it was "very, very dangerous to live even one day" (8) which brought me to think about all the times, when I cross the streets to and from school, what if that driver didn't see me? What if, like that ridiculously icy Monday, someone was going too fast? What if I slipped and cracked my skull? All of these morbid thoughts not only reaffirm the danger in living one day, but also gives the sense of infinity in possibility, that a million things can happen in one second of a day, so much that the mere thought is staggering.
This ties into the conversation of whether continuing each moment of life is a show of inner strength. As Victor brought up, Richard was faced with his doubt and indecisiveness about how to show his love to Mrs. Dalloway, and whether choosing this or that decision would forever seal their relationship. Even though, realistically, I doubt that an unfashionable brooch would do that, there's that sense of irrevocable permanence in one's decisions and that inevitable consequence to come afterward. If I do this or walk this path, would I be able to live with the consequences after..? Now, living in the middle of their life, after having fifty or so years of decisions and indecisions, yes's and no's, myriad moments to wonder about their alternate lives--"What if I was born in America?" "What if I was born in a rich family?" "What if I didn't say no to that job?" "What if I didn't say yes?" Who would I be?--the permanence of all our hours becomes heavier and heavier.
Clarissa, as normal as any other human can be, is a hero in that she can continue to live her life despite all of her "alternate lives," which seem better and whose grass smells fresher. I think her strength is in having her old feelings revived for Peter Walsh (she kisses him) and still having enough to find the beauty in the life she has now, even though that may mean that she must assume the role of the "perfect hostess," the "wife of someone else." I think her strength is in facing the full range of her life and finally accepting all its faults, all its bad decisions and all its good, wholly and unconditionally.
Yes, I was with the life group and I want to continue with the "life" vein (no pun intended). A huge message that we pulled out of Mrs. Dalloway was to seize the moments in life that are the moments of perfect happiness.
Dwelling on the bad things will make your life a living hell, as Septimus's was sometimes. All throughout the novel, each character experiences a moment where things were just perfect. What Jmama, KeVien, and Rorschach were explaining is what I think Mrs. Dalloway is attempting to do- continue living each moment and cherishing the ones she enjoys.
The whole party symbolizes a celebration of life- giving people opportunities to have those blissful moments. At the party, Peter Walsh sees her being the "perfect hostess" and is constantly cynical. Yet Mrs. Dalloway is attempting to create those moments for her guests by helping them pass the social awkwardness and truly connecting with eachother. In the end she manages to reach the toughest of the all, cynical Peter. He is almost moved to conniptions by her presence because it filled him with such ectasy.
Ms. Clapp mentioned if that's not a reason to continue existing, I don't know what is!
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To touch a bit more upon life, I agree that the party Mrs. Dalloway is hosting is touching upon life and its good moments. She is trying to enjoy her moments and I can also connect what Gypsyloo said with Mrs. Dalloway's sort of "fit" about death being discussed at her party. If her party is a celebration of life, then death should have no place there. She is trying to host a party and goes off herself into her own thoughts of death. In a moment when people are trying to enjoy themselves no one wants to be reminded of death, especially the death of a friend.
Although I don't necessarily agree that Mrs. Dalloway is a hero for living her life even though there are "alternate lives" she could choose. If that were the case, everyone would be a hero. If she had chosen the "alternate lives", she still would have thoughts of "what if?" she had taken other choices. Also, I don't think her a bit of a hero for conforming to what society expected of her. She chose the safe route and life with Richard and if she were truly a hero, she would have chosen the life with Peter. The more dangerous and risky side. However since she didn't, she is trying to live her life now and like gypsyloo said, "connect people".
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