Wide Sargasso Sea
Here's your place to discuss Wide Sargasso Sea...how does Rhys's play with the point of view change your vision of Jane Eyre? What do you think her purpose is? What structural paralellels do you find with JE?
posted by Ms. Clapp @ 11:35 PM
68 comments
68 Comments:
So I just finished part one and I have some questions and I have some connections.
1. I am a little bit confused about the ending of part one. Is she dreaming about Mr. Mason coming and all the way to the point when the nun makes her hot chocolate or does he come and her dream is after that? If someone could please clarify that would be awesome.
2. Who are Mannie, Christophine and Pierre? I was confused when Antoinette talked about them.
3. For my connections: There has been a lot that has happened to this poor girl and it seems like it went by in a flash. I believe that her mother showing her no feelings could be a reason for her turning crazy.
4. Another reason is the house burning down and how she was bullied. This can really torture someone. I can relate because when I was six my house burnt down because of a gas leak and it really scars the soul. To this day I am dreadfully afraid of fire and will not go near it.
5.There is also a parallel because Antoinette and Jane Eyre because Antoinette goes from being this little girl going into the convent and it skips passed all the ages until she is older than 17. It reminded me of the time that Jane spent a Lowood.
Nothing else really comes to mind right now, but I think it is a fantastic read and I am much enthused to read the second part. Any comments or questions or answers you have for me please post them.
-- l. katz
Lauren, to address your first point, Mr.Mason does indeed visit and then she has a dream about everything. the dream starts with the line "This was the second time I had my dream."
Pierre was Antoinette's little brother. He died in the attack though. Christophine, i believe, is a servant or someone that just helps Anette. Mannie I think is the same but less loyal.
I like the book so far, it moves much more easily than Bronte's work did. should be fun =]
To connect back to Lauren's 5th point is that much of Antoinette's life is also similar to Jane Eyre. They have been both very neglected, bullied, and abused as a child.
However the Antoinette in the story seems to hide her rage and emotions and grows up to show them. That is opposite from Jane Eyre who shows her rage and emotions to hiding them as an older woman.
I'm on part 2 and since no one is there yet, I can't mention it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
thanks for the help with everything, but can someone direct me in the vocab section i made two posts and i would love some help on the words
Hey
So I was eagerly waiting for this blog to be set up beacause I had a few questions since pretty much finished with the book. I promise not to give away anything to drastic from the plot. So to begin with, I wanted to know what Antionette's race is, I always thought plantation owners were pretty high in society, and seeing her family being so degraded and disrespected I wanted to know why that was happening. Secondly, what I found similar in Jane Eyre and this story is somewhat between Antionette's mother and Jane herself in the beginning. Their rage is very similar which you can see when the family encounters a fire. Also the change in point of view from Rochester to Antionette is confusing at first but the voice that Rhy presents is entirely different, the point of view and tone of the characters is very distinct. Also, I am not finished with the book yet, but I'm pretty close, but I wanted to know if Mr. Rochester is really good looking in this story, or are they concerning good looks to other aspects such as money and nationality? Or is there a huge tragedy comming up that will make him ugly. I have to admit now I see why Ms. Clapp would say that Mr. Rochester did not concern himself with society and their expectations because he only married Antionette to make his father happy, and stuck with her in order to be fair and loyal to her. So I take my comment back in class, in this point of view, Rochester has no appreciation for society and their expectations.
I also had some trouble keeping track of the characters. Who are Godfrey and Sass?
To add onto Lauren's third point, Antoinette rarely speaks of her mother. It seems like she isn't fond of her mother, but she does favor Christophine. Why is that? Do we even know the name of her mother? There doesn't seem to be a strong mother daughter connection here.
To answer some of your questions, Antoinette is white. That is one of the reasons why she and her family is teased and attacked so much early in the book. They are in Jamaica, so slave-ownership is highly disapproved of.
Godfrey took care of their horse, and stayed with the family, even after the horse is killed. He isn't seen as loyal to the family, but actually greedy and stays with them to mooch off of them. Sass is a boy who is also some type of servant, I believe. He left the family, but he comes back at some point.
In response to Saanchi, I, personally, would not compare Jane's rage to that of Antoinette's mother. I think Antoinette's mother is much more extreme, especially because at that point in the book (when their house is burning down) she is on the verge of going literally insane. Jane, at the beginning of the book, when she is yet to be more contained, may be an angry little girl, who is unwilling to keep quiet to her oppressive superiors, but she is not a screaming lunatic.
I would like to discuss a passage that really struck me:
"Then, not so far off, I saw Tia and her mother and I ran to her, for she was all that was left of my life as it had been. We had eaten the same food, slept side by side, bathed in the same river. As I ran, I thought, I will live with Tia and I will be like her. Not to leave Coulibri. Not to go. Not. When I was close I saw the jagged stone in her hand but I did not see her throw it. I did not feel it either, only something wet, running down my face. I looked at her and saw her face crumple up as she began to cry. We stared at each other, blood on my face, tears on hers. It was as if I saw myself. Like in a looking-glass." (45)
When she says that she felt like she was seeing herself in a looking-glass, I was reminded of Jane seeing a strange version of herself in the looking-glass in the red room. Do you think that Tia really disliked Antoinette and actually wanted to throw the rock? From the fact that she started to cry, I feel that she did feel guilty about it. As Antoinette states, they are almost exactly alike, but they are divided by skin color. Just like Jane was seeing herself reflected in society (cold, ghostlike, out of herself, strange) , Antoinette sees how Tia could have been just like her, except it was society that turned Tia against her.
Any other ideas or interpretations of this occurrence?
I just finished part one myself and I noticed some similarities between Jane Eyre and Antoinette. For example while Antoinette was at the convent, she found comfort in Marie Augustine just like Jane Eyre found comfort in Miss Temple. Also, Antointte never seemed to have any friends she trusted and preferred her own solitude rather than socializing just how Jane Eyre was when she was younger.
Lauren, I think her dream was about Mr. Mason or maybe even her father because if you re-read pages 59-60 while she is describing her dream, she mentions following a man through a forest. I think the forest symbolizes uncertainty and the man might be Mr. Mason or maybe even her father who died when she was a lot younger and she feels lost without a father figure.
Christophine is their housemaid while they were living at the Coulibri Estate. She was a wedding present given to her mother by her father. Pierre is her younger brother who ends up dying int he fire. And Mannie is one of the servants that Mr. Mason hires to work at Coulibri.
I also have to agree with you and your point on how Antoinette's craziness could be partially due to her mother never showing emotion towards her... It seems to me that she goes through a pattern of people letting her down in her life and it will all just build up to the point where she really goes crazy.
I however, don't get a good feeling about Mr. Mason. Any thought on him? I just begun on part two so don't spoil it for me ;)
Thanks
Hey everyone, hope your vacation's bumping yo.
Ok, so...
I've found some parallels between the first part (yes, I know I'm a slacker) of Wide Sargasso Sea and Jane Eyre.
Like Cristina has already mentioned Antoinette finds solace in Marie Augustine like Jane finds comfort in Miss Temple. Also, Antoinette is sent to the convent like Jane is sent to Lowood. However, Antoinette's time spent at the convent is like Jane's time at Lowood when it was consumed by typhus; free time, and time to enjoy herself. However, Antoinette mentions, "[she] felt bloder, happier, more free. But not so safe."(57) while at the convent. This qoute reminded me of Jane and how she was petrified of Mr. Brocklehurst and being accepted among her peers while at Lowood. However, Antoinette is afraid for a completely different reason, however I'm not so sure of what it is. Maybe you guys have some ideas?
Also, I picked up on Christophine and Antoinette's relationship. It's another one of those mother figures like in Jane Eyre. Antoinette's mother is so busy with Mr. Mason, Pierre, and living her life that she doesn't pay much attention to Antoinette. Therefore, when Antoinette goes to see her mother she asks if Christophine can be there with her because she finds her to be more of a mother than Annette.
Oh, another parallel I found was Coco, the parrot and the birds in Jane Eyre. Only, the birds in Jane Eyre represent freedom and here Coco represents an unescapable doom. His wings have been cut therefore he cannot fly, and he is caught on fire. Coco is a symbol for Anntoinette's long term outcome.
In the description of Coulibri's garden Antoinette compares it to the garden of Eden. Antoinette's description, "our garden was large and beautiful...but it had gone wild. The paths were overgrown and a smell of dead flowers mixed with the fresh living smell" (39). She even mentions that one of the orchids resembles a snake. Even though Antoniette compares it to Eden, the Garden at Coulibri can be used to describe what's going on with society. There's tension between races, and a lot of hate. The lifestyle of people isn't holy and resembles the fall of Adam and Eve.
Have a good day!!
-Nicole
Great job on the parallels guys! I'm still reading part 2 actually. You know that quote where behind someone who's horrible, there's the person who made them that way? In the book we see the point of view of Mr. Rochester who seems to be a really nice guy. He does not seem at all rude, unlike his character in Jane Eyre. And as mentioned in him telling Jane that he lost his reputation because of Antoinette, it seems that Antoinette's character does that to him.
To go along with the connection of Antoinette and Christophine, in part 2 when Mr. Rochester and Antoinette come back home for their honeymoon, Christophine plays this motherly figure for Antoinette. When she complains that her husband is a vicious man, Christophine tells her to leave. She states that men are worthless. She is only looking out for Antoinette.
Based on the description of Christophine in part 2, I feel that in a way, she represent a female wolf. Stories with females who are hurt by a man and loses complete faith in men, turn cold and stronger that way. [In the movie the Forbidden Kingdom, the witch is born from wolves and hates men]
Why are vacations so short?
Nearly finished with the book and I have a few things to comment on. I really like the parallel between Eyre and Antoinette in the sense that Eyre started out poor and then found her own fortune while Antoinette started rich and then fell into poverty (later to rise by someone else's money.)
I was really confused in the beginning because this is supposed to be a book about the lady in the attic but no one named Bertha was around and Antoinette seemed decently normal. That was cleared up for me when I got to the part in the book that was needed. What do you guys think? Is there more behind Rochester being unable to call Antoinette by her real name than just the fact that he "likes the name Bertha" (Because who really likes that name all that much more than Antoinette?) Do you think he hopes to avoid her going crazy by calling her something other than her mother's name? Or do you think he's distancing himself from her by calling her something other than the name she had when he married her? Oh! And why do you think Rochester remains unnamed throughout the book? He's just the rich white man from England, not named and not really described except for him being rich.
William, in response to your post, Antoinette's mother is Anette (same name, mom has shorted version). In the beginning, I took it as Antoinette was actually making an effort to be the daughter her mother wanted. I feel as if there was a genuine love there until Anette started slipping into dementia. When this happened, Antoinette could no longer connect with her mother and her mother no longer wanted to be connected with. She was off in her own world with her own troubles and her daughter was just another trouble to deal with in a world spinning out of her control.
Everyone has mentioned Christophine and how she's the mother figure but I'm a little slow to believe it. Sure, she starts out that way but, especially mid-part 2 she seems almost dangerous. Someone mentioned a wolf, I imagine a giant cat ready to pounce. She seems almost malignant to me. And what's the deal with Amelie (or however you spell the name--the girl that brings the letters from Daniel to Rochester)?!
I picked up on a repetition of red so I'm going to see where it heads to. Maybe foreshadowing something?
We shall see =]
I've been reading more and I can see where you're coming from Shelle with Christophine...She starts out as the mother figure and slowly loses it. There's a qoute some midway through the second part of the book where Christophine admits to not liking Rochester. Do you think its because of Antoinette and Rochester's marriage? Or something else? Maybe she was just loyal to Annette and stuck around because of that?
What do you guys think?
I agree with Michelle, Christophine did not seem to be so much of a mother figure for me in the book towards Antionette. In fact deep into the second, and third part of the book, I kind of began to feel as if Christophine has adjusted Antionette's feelings through her voodoo skills. Kind of like a drug, the poison that Christophine gave Antionette made her feel in place, and thats the only reason why I feel Antionette even went back to her, in order to calm her with the poison she provided.
I had another question,it make be irrelevant, but I understand Antionette and Mr. Rochester came to this place for their honeymoon, when things started going wrong, and Mr. Rochester was noticing how miserable and fearful Anitonette really was, then why do you not think they went to England in the first place?
I also kind of compared the nunnary to Lowood as Lauren did, it was kind of a new beginning for both characters in both books, but later in the book she said that she was never happy unless she was in Jamaica specifically in the mornings, so when Antionette said that I kind of questioned her experience at the nunnary, what effect do you think that atmosphere had on Antionette?
Well, as usual, i am going to start off my comments before i read everyone else's so that my view do not merge with anyone else's.
First of all, in part one, i feel as though Rhys tries to set up Antoinette as another version of Jane Eyre. For one, Antoinette too has no parents (i know she has a mother but, according to Antoinette, her mother died a long time ago).
Secondly, the only person that Antoinette grows close to is a servant at the house, in this case Christophine.
Antoinette, just like Jane, has to leave her home to join an "all-women's institution."
Okay, so here are a few things i did not understand:
The first line of the book - i just could not help feeling like there was a grammatical error there. Actually, in retrospect, I now believe it is supposed to set us up right from the beginning to listen to he narrative from Antoinette (who does not speak fluent English)...hmm, that makes sense now, so that's not a problem anymore.
Anyway, well, i'm looking through the book now but everything i was wondering about is clearing itself up. Like what Antoinette was imagining behind Christophine's wall (a hand of a man, chiken with its neck bleeding etc.), what 'obea' really was etc. its all making sense now in hindsight.
If i have any more problems i will post them up.
I'm going post by post so if i'm sounding redundant to those who have posted later on, sorry.
So, Lauren Katz:
Everything is real and as you probably know by now, Mr. Mason does come to her.
Mannie is a servant, so is Christophine and Pierre is Antoinette's little brother who is mentally ill from birth.
I think hjer turning crazy is a result of EVERYTHING that happens her, including her mother's standoffish attitude. I wouldn't preempt it right now because we haven't actually witnessed her going crazy yet.
Ditto.
Yes, i noticed the juxtaposition also, and dont forget the nun who takes care of Antoinette and the role Miss Temple played in Jane's life.
Yeah, that's all for now.
William Sit;
Godfrey is an old butler-type servant that they have at the house. He only stayed after the emancipation act because the world out there was too rough for an old man like him. And, according to page 32 (at the top, 2nd full paragraph) Mr. Mason refers to Antoinette's mother as Annette. Also, later on, Rochester starts calling Antoinette Bertha as he discovers that Antoinette ws her mother's name also.
Yeah.
In response to Michelle, we see that Rochester feels regretful almost that he even married Antoinette. He starts to feel that the marriage isn't going to work. Also, he married her for lust I believe. For example, there's a passage on page 70: "Everything is too much, I felt as I rode wearily after her. Too much blue, too much purple, too much green. The flowers too red, the mountains too high, the hills too near. And the woman is a stranger. Her pleading expression annoys me. I have not bought her, she has bought me, or so she thinks...I have sold my soul or you have sold it, and after all is it such a bad bargain? The girl is thought to be beautiful, she is beautiful. And yet..." The marriage was arranged and it seems that Rochester didn't have any say in it at all. Also, in the passage it says that his father paid him thirty thousand pounds, I guess to marry her. So he married her for money and starts to feel unhappy. In response to Nicole, this is probably the reason why Christophine dislikes Richard Mason because he was the one who arranged the marriage and it was for the money.
Rochester is also distancing himself because he's received threatening letter sand he's in a place that is unfamiliar to him and even hostile.
To touch on the madness, it seems like Antoinette could be like a werewolf when she does become mad, but I haven't gotten up to that part yet. I'm like half way through part two. Earlier in the book Antoinette said that she slept in the moonlight right after she saw the rats in her window. Now rats are filthy and dirty and they seem to maybe foreshadow something later on in the book (I'm not entirely sure about what the rats mean, but this is my take on it). I have a feeling that the voodoo that Antoinette asks Christophine to use is going to go wrong.
Here's a random little tid bit of info that's relevant: There's an old legend/myth/belief that those that sleep in the light of the moon go crazy. Hmm....now I see why the author put that little part in!
Yah, I’m a little late, but like Will I'm at the voodoo part. I actually don't know if anyone talked about this yet, but I’m going to anyway. I feel like one of the great things in this book, that for me make it smoother than Jane Eyre, is definitely the structure of her narrative.
What’s great, by this point is that we’ve been allowed to see it from both sides, hers and Rochester’s. And the flow between the two different narratives is really smooth, at first when she switched it I was really taken aback, but now I just think it was a great idea. With having her point of view in the beginning, it’s pretty obvious why the author would make that decision, the reader is allowed to see how Antoinette views the world and why. Like everyone before me said, there is that connection in how she was raised and how she turned out. As a reader, we are allowed to see that she was neglected and never really loved, and kind of abandoned. And in turn, we can infer how this might effect her marriage. She is not used to having to react to love, and with Rochester, I’m pretty sure she loves him but doesn’t know how to show him her feelings. And by seeing the beginning of the story from her POV the reader is connected to how she feels and how she is developed. Like in any story the reader has loyalty to the narrator and depends on their bias/ honesty.
With the switch to Rochester’s point of view, this is when I really loved the way the book was written. I remembered that in one of our discussions in class, the point was brought up of what if we could see it through his eyes? So when we actually get the chance to, it really opens up the book for me. No longer do we feel bound to blame him and side with the heroine. At this point we still can see this type of innocence in him. Just like Antoinette he is scared and unsure of his future. His input is extremely valuable in this book, in that it brings to the table the idea that maybe Rochester isn’t a terrible person, and then we can see the story and his character in a completely different way.
Hey everybody! Great insight from the comments I’ve read. (I’m not that far into part 2 so I didn’t read them all.)
To begin, I agree with you all that Antoinette’s life parallels Jane’s, but I disagree with Adrian’s comment about Antoinette having no parents like Jane. Both Jane’s parents died when she was very young, and as a result, she had to live with her aunt. Antoinette however had a mom whom she lived with for a time. (Regarding her father, at least in part 1, she mentions Annette is her father’s second wife, but then later on, Annette is described as a widow…I wonder what happened.) However, it seems that Annette doesn’t care for Antoinette a great deal, even before she goes insane, because she doesn’t show any affection towards Antoinette or have lots of interaction with her (since Antoinette doesn’t share many memories of them spending time together).
In this respect, perhaps metaphorically she too has no parents—mainly because of her mother’s neglect of her. This perhaps contributes to Antoinette’s insanity at Thornfield.
Because it seems to me like Rhys makes the purpose of part 1 to make the reader feel sympathy for Antoinette and to show the struggles in Antoinette’s childhood that could lead to her insanity, another source of Antoinette’s madness could be the fact that, like Jane, Antoinette was made to feel inferior during her childhood. White Europeans thought she was beneath them because she is part Martinique. The black Jamaicans put her down as a result of her lower class status and to retaliate against the fact that her family are no longer slave owners—not to mention that people know her mother is crazy.
By setting the house on fire, killing Pierre, to me it seemed the blacks are able to show their discontent at being made inferior and take revenge on the oppressors. Similarly, I see Antoinette do this in “Jane Eyre” when as she sets Mr. Rochester’s room on fire and ultimately the entire house–she’s burning her oppressor that has made her feel inferior.
I also had some questions that I hope you all can answer for me: What does the looking glass symbolize? Where was everybody on p.33 (dance? wedding?)?
Also, I didn’t understand the scenes with the man’s hand and bleeding chicken and Antoinette’s second dream (59-60). Regarding this dream, I agree with Cristina that the dream could represent uncertainty, due to the dark and forest, but I don’t understand who the man could be or what this journey represents. At first I thought it might represent a scene from her past with a male figure, but then I thought it perhaps foreboded her marriage to Rochester. Any ideas?
So, i know I'm supposed to wait, but i wanted to answer Alisha before my race. Okay, so like Alisha i definitly think throughout the book the author is playing with our knowledge of Jane Eyre, and all the connections previously made are spot on.By making the books obviously connected, she's forcing readers (with the prior knowledge) to go back to our assumptions of Jane Eyre, this could go badly in we are all proven wrong, or it could help us to interpret where the book is going. I haven't gotten so far as to figure that out yet. There's only one strange flaw, everyone in this book, including Antoinette, call Rochester handsome...but he's not, at least the one we knew wasn't.
Also something i wanted to talk about was the quote Will brought up by Rochester in his last blog. Like her use of narrative being so strange, i was also really captured by her description of things through placing emphasis on their colors. Here are some examples of Rochester:
"On one side the wall of green...the mountains and the blue green sea." (69)
"I drank. It was cold, pure and sweet, a beautiful color against the thick green leaf."(71)
"she was blacker than most of her clothes, even teh handkercheif round her head, were subdued in colour." (72)
"It was all very brightly coloured, very strange," (76)
So those are just a few, i could go on, but i'd rather talk about the technique. So far, it just seems like everything here is so "strange" and different. Even the woman he is supposed to love is colored just differently enough to take notice, it's all an extreme to him and he deosn't seem to know how to take it in. Because he has this emphasis, it's like he's looking at the surface and can't get passed what he can and into what it means.
Ok, I finished the book and here's my major question to pose: is Antoinette really crazy? Or did she only start to go crazy after being locked up in the attic?
It's only when they get to England that I start to think that Antoinette might be off her rocker; up until then I just thought she was angry and trying to find a place inside herself where she didn't feel threatened.
Alisha, I think the importance of that particular dream is to reveal what Obea is. Maybe it's to stress the danger of using obea?
oh! And what was up with the description Antoinette gave Rochester about the last time she saw her mother? Her mother was being sexually abused/used, right?
Do you think there's a specific reason the author doesn't name Rochester in the book?
Ok... So I'm half way through with the book...
Reading the first half of the book, there actually hasn't been anything that has completely changed my point of view. I have more of an insight into Bertha's character, however I didn't have any to begin with so it doesn't change anything yet.
I was surprised that her name was Antoinette, and not Bertha. I'm wondering whether that changes somewhere in the middle, whether Bertha is a nickname for her, and what the significance of it is when she begins to be called Bertha instead of Antoinette.
One part that changed my P.O.V. though, not that I think about it, is that her mother remarried and that Mr. Mason wasn't her real father. From my impressions from the book, they were blood relations, becuase Mr. Rochester said that Mr. Mason would be following in the same footsteps of Bertha, when he gets older.
Within the first half, we are seeing some of the quirks about Antoinette, and I feel that it's the foreshadowing of her "craziness", though it hasn't become full blown yet. Like the story she tells Rochester about the rats... Not sure if that's a symbol/dream or the first sign of her craziness, since apparently, it runs in the family.
Day and Night- Part Two
I saw a parallel between day and night in part two.
When someone thinks of daytime, it involves happiness and sun. The outdoors bring about happiness. Daytime is literature in similar to the connotations of spring, happiness, pure, innocence, radiance, and playful. This idea is shown in Antoinette. In the day time she is very happy, which is shown through her singing Christophine’s songs. In the daytime she also enjoys looking in the mirror. It is not until the night time that the reader is able to see another side of Antoinette’s life. In the daytime is also when Rochester travels to David Cosway where he learns the truth about Antoinette’s past. With this it seems that during the daytime the characters are faced with reality and reason. In the day the characters are able to gain information that may be crucial to them. While at night the reader sees that the bad things are surfaced which are based on lust and violence. It is at night that Antoinette gives the potion to Rochester in an attempt to make him fall in love with her to prevent him from wanting to leave. Secrets are not revealed to characters at night. Antoinette keeps this potion a secret from Rochester. In the daytime secrets are revealed but by other characters that have an insight on another character. Christophine talks about Rochester to Antoinette telling her to leave him in the daytime, revealing information to her that is crucial to her life. And Cosway reveals the past of Antoinette to Rochester in the daytime, revealing information that is crucial to his life.
When someone thinks of nighttime, it involves sadness, and darkness. At nighttime people are usually inside which shows confinement and restriction. In the privacy of indoors the truth is revealed because society is not watching. The night can be closely linked with the same connotations of winter in a work of literature. Winter is not a happy time. Its dark and gloomy. It is in the night time that Antoinette talks about the truths of her terrible childhood. She also talks about death to him during the night. It is also in the night that they have sexual relations with each other. In most relationships these relations are based on love but it seems in this case that it is solely lust.
In response to Michelle…
I don’t think that Antoinette was initially mad. I think that it all started when Rochester imprisoned her. She had a lot of things going on in her life that were the cause of her “madness”. So I would not consider her crazy she was just really sad and didn’t know how to react to certain things. Her mother pretty much abandoned her, her father she doesn’t even really know, her stepfather took her mother away and treated her like a monster, Christophine the person that she loved so much left her (even though she still helped her), Rochester never loved her, Rochester tries to strip her of everything she is including changing her identity by calling her a different name, she was taken away from Jamaica (the one place that she loved), Rochester threw her in an attic to imprison her, she forgot who she was because she could not even look in the mirror to see her transformation, and she ruined her only chance of leaving by threatening to kill her stepbrother, who was the only person to visit her from her family. She has every reason to act the way that she does. A person can only take so much she doesn’t know what to do anymore. So, yes, I agree that her actions are crazy but because she has reason to act the way she does I don’t see her as crazy (if that makes any sense).
I feel really terrible for her. In Jane Eyre I felt really bad for Mr. Rochester and that Bertha Mason was a burden on him but after reading Wide Sargasso Sea my views have switched and I feel really bad for Antoinette. He was the reason that she in the end started to act the way that she did. There was no need for him to imprison her in his attic. He only had selfish reasons for doing so. He only did it so that he could get rid of her, so that he would not have to deal with her for the rest of his life. He tried to lock his past away , he seemed to believe out of sight out of mind. I really don’t like Mr. Rochester anymore. I felt bad for him but now I have no sympathy for him at all. He brought himself into all of this and he deserved everything that happened to him. And he is lucky that he even got to be with the one that he truly loved, because in my eyes he doesn’t deserve anything. He married Antoinette for money not for love and love needs to be the foundation of every relationship. But I still do think that Mr. Rochester learned a lesson because he went away from lust and desire and married for love with Jane Eyre.
Ok so...I just finished the book and I really enjoyed it. Here's some stuff I picked up on throughout the book.
Once Rochester realizes that Antoinette is named after his mother he begins to call her Bertha, trying to distance her from her past and mother as much as he can. Here's where I found a parallel to Jane Eyre. Once Jane agrees to the engagement Rochester tries to make her into something she isn't. Rochester is a very stubborn and controling man. He wants things his way and takes it to the extreme when he doesn't get what he wants. What he wanted was for Antoinette to tell him that Daniel was lying and allow them to go on they way they were, living in complete bliss, but once he found out that her past wasn't perfect he locked her in the attic rather than try and try to love her and start over with her. With Jane, who isn't rich or an social equal, Rochester attempts to make her something she wasn't showing that he is a very controlling perfectionist.
Also, Jane and Antoinette are both very passionate. Jane we see is more passionate when she is younger and learns how to control herself. However, Antoinette is the complete opposite. She starts off in the beginning as a very quiet child who keeps to herself. However, as the novel continues Antoinette handles things with more passion.
I feel as though Antoinette goes crazy because her love for Rochester has been betrayed. He treats her horribly, cheats on her, and doesn't even attempt to forget her past after she has told him the truth and tried in multiple different ways to make him love her again. She wasn't intially mad at all.
-Nicole
Oh, and one more thing...
There's a lot of mention with fire and the color red, like in Jane Eyre, and I feel as though the fire and color red appears more towards the end of the book where Antoinette goes crazy and act more passionately towards the events that are taking place. But, I'm still a little lost on what the fire and all the red is supposed to symbolize. Could someone clear it up?
Thanks!
I just finished reading!
Well I defintely feel sorry for Antoinette. However I DO think she is crazy. She starts acting it after she finds out Mr. Rochester cheated on her and she drinks all that rum. Then with all those things she describes in her life in England, it seems that she is crazy.
I just wanted to comment on the comparison between Jane's rage and Antoinette's mother, mentioned at the beginning of this "discussion". I really don't think they can be compared because Antoinette's mother is filled with a lot more rage to the point of it reaching to insanity in some parts in the novel. I mean, I understand that Jane is quite an angry girl at Gateshead but her rage is justified and it later tamed later in the novel. The thing is, Antoinette's mother's rage is just so out of control and almost reaches insanity so I really think they are on different levels of comparison.
I agree with Gen I really like the way that the narrative flows.
In my point of view I dont find Jane Eyre to be that reliable of a source because it is being written by her and the only insight that we get from characters is through dialogue between characters. Other than that Jane is telling us everything that she wants the reader to know and nothing more. So based on Jane Eyre there was a lot of instances where I was unsure what stance to take whether I should sympathize with Jane or Mr. Rochester but through this book I was able to actually take a stance. I think that the events in this book and their outcomes as well as the relationships between characters are true. I believe that Rochester is the source of Antoinette’s madness and that he fully to blame. In Wide Sargasso Sea the point of views of most of the characters are shown which makes me believe the story a lot more than I did Jane Eyre. Not to say that I think Jane was lying but since the majority of the book is through her perspective she can at times be biased.
But…I disagree that there is a possibility that Mr. Rochester may not be a terrible person.
I think that now that I have read this book I am able to finally make my true opinion of him. I think that he is a terrible man. While reading Jane Eyre I thought that Bertha Mason was a burden on him, now I see that he caused everything. I feel that he has very cliché “dug his own grave.” (Sorry Mrs. Clapp) But, yes I really think that through this book the truth about Mr. Rochester is surfaced and I don’t like his character anymore.
The End!
In response to Rei, I'm going to have to side with the others who said that they don't believe that Antoinette is as crazy as Rochester says she is. Especially at that point you mentioned where she acts out after Rochester cheats on her. Honestly, I would act out too. He cheated on her in the room next to where she was sleeping. That's a pretty scummy thing to do. Plus, like you said, she was out-of-her-mind drunk on rum.
Getting closer to the end of the book, I almost have to question Rochester's sanity. I don't actually think he's insane, but his actions and his thought process confuse me. I first started to feel this way during that huge argument, where Christophine keeps yelling at him, and he just sits there, commenting in his head. She accuses of him of purposely having the affair with Amelie- that it wasn't just a spur of the moment occurrence, he thinks "Yes, that didn't just happen. I meant it." (166) That really took me aback. And it reminds me of how he manipulates Jane and plays with Blanche Ingram to get her jealous. Except, in this case, I don't think he's trying to make Antoinette jealous. I don't know what his purpose is. But it definitely seems like he's toying with her.
Then, when Christophine says that he should just leave, and she'll stay there with Antoinette, so Antoinette can meet another man to marry, so she'll forget about him, he says "A pang of rage and jealousy shot through me then. Oh no, she won't forget. I laughed." (159) This seemed to me to be pretty sinister. It also confused me, because he says that he doesn't love her, but he must be emotionally attached to her in some way to feel jealous.
Lastly, on pages 165 - 166, once they've moved to England, he speaks of Antoinette with a sort of disgust and talks of her as crazy and insane, but then he says, "Antoinetta - I can be gentle too. Hide your face. Hide yourself but in my arms. You'll soon see how gentle. My lunatic. My mad girl," (notice the use of Antoinetta, rather than Bertha) which reminds me of how he calls Jane his "little elf." It seems that Rochester has some definite control issues. He says he doesn't love her, and if that's so, then he just wants to own her and be in control of her, as far as I can tell right now.
hey ya'll I just wanted to say that the second part of the book is awesome! Anyways . . . So I saw another connection to Jane Eyre and it was when Antoinette asks/tells Rochester why he calls her Bertha and it is because she says that he wants her to be something else. I wanted to distinguish that he also tries to make Jane something that she is not and I think it was a weird connection because even though in Jane Eyre it seems as if these two characters have nothing in common, they most certainly have parallels in their earlier lives. So ready for the last part I'll deff. comment tomorrow can't wait for the feed back woot woot !
- L. Katz
*whoops, quick correction on my last post... I guess they weren't in England yet at that point, but they're just about to move anyway..*
Finished the book today!
To me, it didn't seem like Antoinette was really crazy. She turned crazy because she was locked up in Thornfield. By that time, she had become a marionette as Rochester referred to her as. She has no more control over herself and she can't leave Thornfield. Rochester is the one who is pulling all the strings. He wants her to simply become a memory and never have to trouble him again. Like Jess said, Antoinette was just drunk and reacting to the fact that Rochester cheated on her.
I agree with Gen. Looking at the story from the point of view of Rochester and Antoinette helps and really shows how crule Rochester is. In addition, it causes us to sympathize with Antoinette. She seemed really innocent and the book never mentions whether she had any say in the marriage either.
I think the marriage would have been smoother if the honeymoon was somewhere else. They should have gone to France or Italy. Antoinette loved Jamaica, but Rochester felt uneasy and scared during his stay there. The part where he sort of mocks the boy: "That stupid boy followed us, the basket balanced on his head. He used the back of his hand to wipe away his tears. Who would have thought that any boy would cry like that. For nothing. Nothing..." (173). He just doesn't show affection towards anything and he must have had a messed up childhood to think like that. He was supposed to be a guest in Jamaica. To add on to the color discussion, Rochester described the forest as a "green menace" (149) and a "black snake-like forest" (167) and this shows that he was in the wrong place and that he feels overwhelmed by everything.
Sorry that I'm posting so late, I just got back from vacationing in Montreal, so there were was no computer access, however, i did bring the book and finished reading it.
To discuss the first part of the novel- i find the narration to be quite confusing, like it doesn't sound smooth and flow, even as I tried reading it out loud. A lot of events seemed to be jumbled together, and i just feel there are missing pieces to the story Antoinette tells. I feel sympathy for her, but there's also something in her narration that makes me question her, and not trust her completely, especially events after the fire. Unlike JE (Jane Eyre), where the language may be complex and descriptive, but the story proceeded very clearly, Wide Sargasso Sea seems to be simple, but the narration makes it difficult to comprehend sometimes.
As for parallels, there were quite a lot. Agreeing with everyone, Christophine indeed was representative of Bessie. Both were servants, but showed more of a motherly love and care towards the unfortunate girl, than the head of the household like Mrs. Reed or Anette.
I also agree with everyone that Mother St Justine was a replica of Miss Temple- someone kind and loving to accept every child no matter what their background. The whole convent was similar to Jane's experiences at Lowood too, since both girls spent a great part of childhood there, and left at eighteen to pursue a completely new life.
I also though Antoinette's mother was very much like Celine Varens. They both share that same appearance of being fragile and beautiful, the type of women that needs protection, and can easily be broken. A life of luxury was what they were accustomed to, and men can provide that. Not to mention both were excellent dancers too.
I have to commend Nicole on her connections she found in the garden and the parrot. I agree completely with the juxtaposition of the birds symbolizing freedom in JE and captivity in WSS (Wide Sargasso Sea), proven by the succumb of Anette's delirium and eventual death while imprisoned in the "watch" of two colored people. The garden analysis and comparing it to Eden, the fall of mankind, and using it to symbolize society was great. I also think how its interesting there were orchids in this garden, since these are rare and exotic flowers thats very high maintenance to care for- it kind of reminds me of Anette and her struggle to survive among the abyss of other flowers represented by the harsh treatment of the colored Jamaicans.
Well I do want to point out that Antoinette does not really remember that she bit Richard Mason. She doesn't even believe that she is in England. Then she can smell this strong scent coming off of her red dress, which I am sure that after all the time she's been away from her native land, the scent would not linger. I feel that the events of part 3 shows that she is crazy.
At that point, yes, I do believe she is unwell. But, as others have already said before, it is because she is shut up in that room that she starts to lose it. But even then, it seems to me, she isn't totally insane. She can still think and speak rationally. When she says she doesn't believe that she is in England, I don't think it's as literal as you're taking it. When you see it through her eyes, she (sort of metaphorically) really isn't in England, because she's not free to experience the country. But it is when she gets to go outside and see the "grass and olive-green water and tall trees," (183) she is able to say that she is in England, because she finally gets to experience its beauty for a moment. She even says that if she were able to stay there, she'd get well again, which supports why I don't think she really becomes crazy until she is locked up by Mr. Rochester.
Before they movedto England, he continues to call her a lunatic, when really she was just sad and alone. Everyone thinks she is insane, because her mother was. They think it's in her blood. But I don't believe she would have turned out that way if they would have just treated her like a normal human being.
I agree with Lauren, the second part of the book was awesome, a lot better than part I.
In part I, I was questioning whether I was going to enjoy the book, but after finishing it,I think it was great.
Ok.. back to the connections/questioning.
I agree with everyone who thinks Antoinette is not crazy. Or, at least that is waht Jean Rhys is trying to tell us in Wide Sargasso Sea.
Purpose: I think Rhys is trying to show us how society, hatred,and skewed sexual relations are the causes for "Bertha's" insanity. (Like the summary on the back says)
In Jane Eyre, we simply accepted "Bertha's" insanity as inherent and hated it, since it was the cause of frustration between Rochester and Jane, but in this story we symphathize with her and dislike Rochester for his cruel actions. This duality, reminds us that there are always two sides to a story (like Antoinette says while explaining about her mother and her own background/childhood)...
Injustice in Society is another repeating theme throughout the book. Because "old Cosway" was a slaveowner, everyone hates them though they themselves have done nothing wrong. (Here's another case of two sides of a story). Typically, in history we side with those that have been liberated and those that have "hated" the "injustice" of slavery, like Rochester for example. However, in this case we side with Antoinette because these are all unfairly thrown on her and are part of what drives her crazy - the hatred others feel towards her that stemmed most probably out of jeolousy (when they were the masters/rich)....
This book really showed us a different side on everything...Antoinette's insanity, the lives of slaveowners, the lives of the "white" that lived abroad (I was always under the impression that the white that lived abroad had control over the natives, and lived better lives then them, but this obviously was not the case)..., who the money really bought, ... and etc.
Ooooh....
Something I just realized... Antoinette is similiar to Jane in the sense that she doesn't clearly "belong" to a certain class/certain society.
Jane = governess, noble but poor, higher than servants yet below becuase poorer than them.
Antoinette = white, but partially Martinique.
In the beginning, she is also of good blood (better than Rochester according to Christophine) but dirt poor.
She is white, and rich, but hated by all around her.
She herself says that she doesn't fit in anywhere because she is a "white creole".
She has money, but no respect from her servants...
AOk, so I’m more than halfway through with Part 2 and am confused—about their location (like where are they on their honeymoon? Coulibri? Spanish Town? Jamaica?) and the shifts in point of view.
Like Will and Gen, I too noticed the emphasis on colors, but what it the purpose of it? I know it contributes to visual imagery, but does anybody think it could suggest more? The emphasis on colors forces me to make distinctions about the differences in race of the people, but I don’t think this necessarily explains the many vibrant colors used.
Color is also portrayed through the contrasting of day and night. I found Thea’s comment about night and daytime very insightful. However, I saw them to be more indicative of the level of fear. The characters are more fearful in the night than in the day. This is stressed when Rochester insists on being told about Antoinette’s mom in the daylight rather than in the “watching, listening night” (29).
This line seems to highlight the evil, deceit, and lies in this place. This is also done by the emphasis on descriptions of the beauty of Coulibri, in my opinion (like on the bottom of page 130). Its beauty versus the reality that “lies are never forgotten, they go on and they grow” (131) in this place, show that one can’t judge things by their exterior because although they may be pretty, they can be evil and deceitful—to me, this seems it could be suggestive of both the beautiful Antoinette and her mother and their eventual insanity.
Regarding Michelle’s comment about the connection between their names and Rochester calling Antoinette Bertha, I think he does this in order to distance Antoinette from becoming like her mother, since Bertha seems to give her a new identity and a fresh start with no connection to her crazy mother (“birth” is in the name Bertha). I think this because after reading Daniel Cosway’s letter, although not surprised, Rochester is definitely disturbed and anger by Antoinette’s past as conveyed through his actions after it. Plus, his relationship changes with Antoinette after learning this to the point where he doesn’t want to touch her and she can sense that he hates her. Naming her Bertha gives her a chance to evolve into something different.
At the same time, I don’t understand the need to name her this when he doesn’t seem to love her anyway. Also, I find it odd that Antoinette wants Rochester to love her and will use “obeah”/“voodoo” in order to make him love her, when I don’t see any indication that she has any real affection for him. Many times she asks him to leave, like the time she told him to go swim while she stayed in the room calling herself lazy. Does anybody else thinks that she loves Rochester?
Winnie, i completely agree with the similarity of class and belonging between Jane and Antoinette. Both had no place in society, despite their seemingly good backgrounds. However, there is one major difference- Jane constantly sought for a place to belong, she didn't want anyone to have control over her, and always made her decisions based on what's she's socially and morally able to accept, without degrading herself- in other words, she sought independence. Antoinette on the other hand, can only depend on Rochester, both financially and socially. Christophine has urged her to leave him, and start a new life, but she won't, only begging for unrealistic ways to have Rochester love her. She doesn't necessarily seek freedom or independence. Her personality is very weak, and she needs someone as support.
And to answer Alisha's question, I don't think Antoinette loves Rochester as she claims to Christophine. I believe its something she forces herself to believe, so she would belong and hopefully be accepted by someone in her life. As a child and growing up, Antoinette was ignored by her mother, and hated by the Jamaicans. She didn't belong to the English, nor did she belong to the Jamaicans, as she was labeled "white cockroach" and "white nigger". Her only childhood friend betrayed her, and went to taunt her like the rest of society. No one has shown her love except Christophine and her aunt. She has never loved anyone either. Thus, she probably thought she "loved" Rochester, and if she could get him to love her back, she would feel accepted in society for once in her life. I just think she's confused and the stress and neglect from Rochester, Amelie, and her own past, heightens her need for love and belonging.
Page 153 struck me the most in the book because of the way Rhys chose to write the argument/conversation between Christophine and Rochester.
From this page, we see Rochester's true character and more into his motives.. The parenthesis echo his own thoughts, but also show how he has become so tired that he can't even hide his emotions anymore. And how he can only repeat and agree with what Christophine says because he is tired.
From this page, we see that Rochester did want to break down Antoinette, shows his association of Antoinette with a marionette, and how he purposely wanted to hurt Antoinette and make her cry. I agree with Jess, and particulary feel that the way he cheated on her purposefully and with the intentions of her hearing especially dispicable. It is similar to the way he toys around with Jane later in his life... He is a cold and calculating person.
We see that he really did marry Antoinette just for the money, and that his calling her crazy and "believing' what everyone else said about her is really just an excuse to mistreat her and leave her... without loosing out on the money himself.
In some respect, I understand where he's coming from... he was sent just to marry her for her money... he was just itching for an excuse to not like her... since all he really wanted was her money.
However, what I really couldn't stand about him was the fact that he KNEW she wasn't crazy/he didn't believe Daniel Crosway... yet he still mistreats her and calls her lunatic. Also, he refuses to let her go/free her (hmmm... bird from Jane Eyre? Whose controlling now? huh). "Perhaps because I was so quiet and composed she added maliciously, 'She marry with someone else. She forget about you and live happy.'
A pang of rage and jealousy shot through me then. oh no, she won't forget. I laughed" p159 He's so SELFISH here!!! or spiteful.. eitherway he is being a horrible person here.
To close though, in this story, I can't help but to hate him. He's just portrayed by Rhys as horrible. However, in the context of Jane Eyre, I still kind of like him. Though the version of Rochester from Wide Sargasso Sea is possible, it's not the Rochester Bronte is showing us in Jane Eyre.
I also agree that Antoinette is not crazy, and accepts the fact that being locked up and treated like one without knowledge of time caused her to become overemotional and confused. Its almost as if she's a victim of amnesia, due to all the shock related to her past, and the cruel treatment of Rochester. She tries to remember her past, and reason why she's kept captive- which shows she's not completely insane, because she was still rational about her whereabouts and how she's going to set herself free from it. She's not crazy to enact her dream, because this was the only way she could get attention from Rochester to listen to her. She just wanted answers and to know why she was treated the way she was, thus the fire comes to symbolize her rage and inner voice. I really pity this girl, being forced to retrace her mother's footsteps of insanity.
She's been completely wrongly accused by people who don't even know her, and a puppet to Rochester- someone so greedy and cruel he justed wanted to control her and keep her in the back of his memory, even though he hated her. I despise Rochester so much in this story, I don't see why he has to keep her like a slave when he doesn't even want anything to do with her. I'm so glad he lost his eyesight in the fire later, as he himself had told Christophine that he "would give his life to undo it", that he would "give his eyes never to have seen" all this mess (161).
I can't help but think of the significance of "the looking- glass" It was constantly referred to throughout all parts of the story, and I just wonder the role it has. Why did Rhys call it the "looking- glass" rather than simply a "mirror"? Throughout the novel, Antoinette saw herself reflected through many "looking- glasses", could this have to do with the fact that she never belonged in society, that she's constantly seeking to find her "true identity"? Besides, a mirror can only show the "supposed and seemingly" appearance of an individual, exactly how readers of Jane Eyre and other misinterpret Antoinette from her outward appearance. Nobody knew the real her, the suffering girl being kept captive and controlled by Rochester. In the end, when she's locked up in the attic with Grace overseeing her, she mentions she hasn't seen her reflection for a long time and don't even know who she is anymore- only the lunatic people accept her to be. Then she scares herself in her recurring dreams of seeing a ghost, which she didn't know was herself. What do you guys think about the importance of the "looking- glass"?
Part one:
After reading part one of the novel we start to see a connection between Antoinette's life and Jane Eyre's life. They both live solitary lives in their childhood. It seems like each event that happens in Antoinette's life it connects with the events that happened in Jane's life.
The first part of the story also introduces for us some symbols.
1. death
In the begining of part one we are already introduced with Annette's dead horse. Antoinette gives us the image of a dead, rotted horse.
I saw her horse lying down under the franipani tree. I went up to him but he was not sick, he was dead and his eyes were black with flies. (18)
When I first read this it gave me a good picture of a dead horse, lying under a tree. This also made me wonder if the horse's death forshadows someone else's death that might happen later on in the novel.
2. religion
Godfrey introduces the Lord in the novel. This is sort of Ironic because his name has the word God in it and he has the word Frey in it; which means the god of peace and prosperity. He tells Annette that, The Lord make no distinction between black and white, black and white the same for him. Rest yoruself in peace for the righteous are not forsaken. (18)
Also, Antoinette compares Coulibri Estate to the garden of Eden.
Our garden was large beautiful as that garden in the Bible - The tree of life grew there. But it had gone wild. The paths were overgrown and a smell of dead flowers mixed with the fresh living smell. Underneath the tree ferns, tall as forest tree ferns, the light was green. orchids flourished out of reach or for some reason not to be touched. One was snaky looking, another like an octopus with long thin brown tentacles bare of leaves hanging from a twisted root. Twice a year the octopus orchard flowered- then not an inch of tentacle showed. It was a bell-shaped mass of white, mauve, deep purples, wonderful to see. The scent was very sweet and strong. I never went near it. All Coulibri Estate had gone wild like the garden, gone to bush. (19)
The garden represents Annette and Antoinette giving up their innocence to a corrupted, decaying, impure estate. This results in them both becoming isolated and solitary: from everyone around them and from one another.
The garden of Eden should be a place of bliss or happiness but Antoinette is relating her garden to be the complete opposite of the Garden of Eden. She describes the the her garden to be physically beautiful but it had gone wild. This could be describing her mother. Her mother is physically beautiful but mentally insane. When she says orchids flourished out of reach or for some reason not to be touched It describes the distance between her and her mother. How her mother has become distant with her and doesn't even want her daughter to come near her.
One sentence that caught my attention from this passage was:
Underneath the tree ferns, tall as forest tree ferns, the light was green.
"The light was green" just made me think of envy and money. Money is another thing that Antoinette and her mother don't really have until her mother marries again.
I have to agree with Winnie and Mrs. Clapp, you were right, byt rh end of this book we were NOT going to like Mr. Rochester.
Indeed he was just sent on a mission to marry for money and when he met Antoinette and soon became familiar with her and her past, he knew that she was an emotionally unstable person and fragile and you could even say naive. He took adavantage of that and manipulated her. He didn't believe Daniel Causeway for a second and he used that to his advantage.
Christophine was right when she kept telling Antoinette to leave him.
However, I don'y understand why Rochester couldn't just leave the island. Was it because he was determined to come back with Antoinette and her money or was it due to other reasons?
And why did he begin with calling her Bertha?
I believe that he began calling her Bertha because he did not want all the rumors to be true about her craziness. I believe that he was wishing that she was someone else and not like her mother (supposedly crazy). To answer your question Cristina. Also I believe that he was out right lying when he said that he was fond of the name Bertha because truthfully I think its a horrible name it reminds me of like a fat ugly woman lol. Anyways so the ending I didn't like that much but I also so some comparisons between this book and Jane Eyre. The first connection I realized was when Antoinette was describing her room or something like that and it seemed to me to be like Bronte's writing a little bit because I do not think it was needed because who really cares about what her room looked like. Also another connection that I made was when Antoinette has that the dream about being in the red room and it catching on fire. First of all I do not think that was a dream I think she was sleep walking or the craziness was taking control of her and it really happened because of what happened in Jane Eyre. Also she said that she felt miserable or sad in that room and I made the connection to when Jane had been locked in the red room at Gateshead and she was miserable. I feel as though both of the rooms being red really signifies that passion whether it be hate or love that both these characters have/had. But what do ya'll think? Let me know. :]
-- L. Katz
I have to agree with Jessica about the scene between Antoinette and Tia. This also relates between Antoinettes mother and Christophine. Both Antoinette and Annette try to figure out who they are through these two individuals. Antoinette trys to define herself through Tia and Annette trys to define herself through Christophine. Christophine is the mother figure that Annette wants to be towards Antoinette but can not be.
So, like all of you I am liking the book so far, especially seeing the extent at which the story paralells Jane Erye.
I just want to start off by noting perhaps the most prominent imagery in my eyes in the novel, and that is the natural imagery and use of gardens. I think it was wise of Rhys to incoporate the natural imagery into Wide Sargasso Sea just as Bronte uses nature in Jane erye. So, I have to bring up Nicole's Point regarding the Garden of Eden comparison. I thought that
Antoinette's description stating that "our garden was large and beautiful...but it had gone wild"(39) not only recalls the aspect of turmoil that Eve had experienced in the Garden, but Antoinette's as well.
I do agree that this imagery could reflect the social tensions of the time period, but I have to emphasis Rhys choice of the word "wild" in this description.
In reading Jane Erye, we have prior knowledge that "Bertha" has lost her mind and has transformed into a bestial creature that must be locked in the attic. The connection between the wild image of Bertha and natural settings go hand in hand, and I personally believe that the desciptions of nature reflect more Antionette's feelings at a given time more than a holy reference her, although the similarity is apparent. In short, I guess you could say that Rhys uses the garden as a metaphor for her Antoinette's psychological states. I feel this is even more apparent due to the fact that color and the use of the word "wild" is repeted throughout the novel, as color, we know, can be a true indicator of mood.
I feel the use of the color black various times (ex:34,40,57) in the beginning of the novel also conjures a sense of foreshadowing as too Antoniette's despairing fate.
Because the novel can be somewhat confusing at times with what seem like sudden shifts in discussion and blabber, I join you all in the confusion as to which characters are which at times, but I'm hoping that will be resolved later in the novel.
--Danielle
Finally finished the book!
To contribute to the discussion of Antoinette’s madness, I think that she goes mad before she goes to England. Like Rei, I think it all starts after Rochester has an affair with Amelie. Antoinette is an emotional wreck after this and continually drinks. I understand that the drinking contributes to her rage, but this relates to her dad’s madness because according to Daniel Cosway, he was a drunk who continuously shouted obscenities, which Antoinette also does after the incident (of which Christophine attributes to her father). Also, her crazy mom drunk rum as well.
Although it was wrong for Rochester to cheat on Antoinette and I feel bad for her, I think she partially brought this, and the insanity, upon herself, although I also believe some of her insanity is inherent. She distanced herself from Rochester and didn’t attempt to help him understand the culture that he was immersed in. She also wasn’t truthful to him (about her past) and begged Christophine to use obeah, even though Christophine didn’t think it would be a good idea. (Still, Rochester is a “bad” person for not trying to make the relationship work either.)
As a result, to me, Rochester’s affair seems to be Antoinette’s breaking point. She realizes that Rochester will never love her (since the obeah didn’t work), just as she hasn’t felt much love her entire life; instead she has been subject to hate, fear, inferiority and the loss of friends due to this inferiority. After this and Christophine’s desertion of her (whom she began to doubt anyway), Antoinette seems to be a defeated person and is in her own world, not even protesting to going to England.
By saying that she’d get well again if she left England, proves that something is truly wrong with her. Then again I don’t think she was well when she left for England because she was silent and even more distant than usual.
Having said, to me it appears that Rhys wants the reader to feel sympathetic towards Antoinette and believe that Antoinette does go “mad” at moments (like forgetting about attacking her brother Richard) but that it is Rochester’s fault. I say this because Rhys tells us that Antoinette bought a knife for herself, was sly enough to take the keys and explore the house, and set fire to the house, which it appears she will do for real at the book’s conclusion. These instances suggest she’s in control of herself and defying Rochester’s controlling ways.
The water was so clear that you could see the pebbles at the bottom of the shallow part. Blue and white and striped red. Very pretty. (23)
I'm not sure but I feel like the pebbles at the bottom of the water could symbolize something. They could symbolize her mothers personality and how she could see right through her. I think nature and colors are probably both strong symbols in the novel. The way Antoinette describes the things around her, they could all relate to how she is feeling or forshadow what is going to happen next.
The dream that Antoinette has at the end of Part one is warning Antoinette about what is going to happen to her in her future. Since we all know what happens to Antoinette from Jane Eyre. I think that the dream is with her and Mr. Rochestor. Rochestor is probably the man who is leading her up to the forest and is bringing her to where he is going to keep her locked up forever. What gives me the idea that the man is Rochestor is when she describes what she is wearing. I am wearing a long dress and thin slippers ... It is white and beautiful and i don't wish to get it soiled. The image that popped up in my head right away was a wedding dress.
Then as she goes on she then says she is no longer in the forest but in an enclosed garden surrounded by a stone wall and the trees are different trees. This is probably Thornfield, Rochestors Estate. This is again connects with Jane because Jane also had dreams that told her what is going to happen next to her.
In response to Michelle’s question about why Rochester goes nameless throughout the book (which bothered me too), I think it initially acts as a way for Rhys to force the reader to relate this book back to Jane Eyre. However, as Rhys is definitely able to stress the difference between pure Europeans and the white and black Creoles by doing so, since Rochester is frequently referred to as an English/European gentlemen. However, I feel that by not giving Rochester a name, Rhys perhaps suggests that European males in general are only inclined to marry for money and act as Rochester did in a land foreign to him. She also perhaps makes him of lesser importance than Antoinette and the other characters by not stating his name to the reader, thus paralleling Rochester’s mean, cold character towards Antoinette. Based on his actions in Wild Sargasso Sea, it seems that Rhys portrays him to be one of the “lowest” characters, despite the fact that society thinks he's from the "superior" race.
Hello everyone! After re-reading, I found a lot of similiarities or parrallels between Jane Eyre and Antoinette. One thing I found to be similiar was the fire that took place during Part I and the fire where Jane rescues Mr. Rochester. They are simliar circumstances due to the fact that they both involve a change in the lives of both Antoinette and Jane. Antoinette moves to the convent after this situation takes place and Jane subsquently realizes that Rochester is married. The fire acts as a changing point for our protagonists.
Also, at the convent, there are similiarities between Antoinette and Eyre in the way they act and feel towards other people. Eyre and Antoinette both live in solitude and distrust towards other people which is caused by their past experiances...Antoinette is constantly neglected and put aside by her mother as Jane is by Mrs. Reed.
Although this is true, there are similiarities between the womenly figures who help pull both Antoinette and Eyre out of this. At the convent, Antoinette finds comfort and trust in Marie Augustine as Jane Eyre does in Miss Temple.
I just wanted to make a comment about the constant change in syntax and description throughout the book. In part I, there is a lot of inverted syntax (which I found a bit confusing, but I think that's what purpose it was supposed to serve to make an emphasis to the reader). As for me, I had to go back and re-read the differently styled sentances that I later found out were important to the story. Just a thought.
Ok so I have to comment on a few things. First of all, the previous comment I made comparing the rage between Antionette's mother and Jane Eyre and comparing the two has been disagreed with, and I can see where they are comming from but when you say their rages were on different levels, I kind of take each individual seperatley, for Jane Eyre, a child,talking rudely, and standing up for herself physically and verbally against John Reed was equally as bad as a grown lady such as Antionette to go insane because of her sons death where no one really remorsed for is just as bad. Taking into consideration the enviornment and age I think their fits of rage are similar. I suppose I am comparing the intensity they both have. I can see its a far fetched theory, but I still hold on to my idea.
I also wanted to discuss a new point, concerning the roosters (cocks) and how they were represented in the story. As roosters squack ( I think that's the sound they make) they begin a new day, a fresh start. On page 163, the rooster serves that idea where the rooster makes his call before Mr. Rochester decides its time to leave, representing a change of a events and metaphorically a "new day" for him.
Also, I noticed how Jane and Antionette both resist from becoming what Mr. Rochester wants to mold them to become. For example, Antionette dislikes being called Bertha because that is not who she is, and Mr. Rochester is trying to give her a new identity. In the same way Jane dislikes the way Mr. Rochester is showering her with silk and jewels because she wants to commit to her own identity and not Mr. Rochesters.
Wow, looks like everyone has a lot of good ideas...but one thing that's still got me is WHY IS THE BOOK CALLED WIDE SRAGASSO SEA? Coz there was no refrence to this anywhere in the entire novel...
Adrian I think I may be able to answer your question...
I researched the Sargasso Sea after reading the book, and apparently in most media the Sargasso is portrayed as a mystery becuase of its location in the Bermuda Triangle. And, Antoinette's life is a mystery to not only Rochester but us too. We found out more about her as we continued to read. And, throughout most of Jane Eyre we are left completely in the dark about Bertha, most of her life before Rochester and even after is a complete mystery.
I think that's the significance of the title...hope it helped.
-Nicole
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Interesting connection, Nicole. Since the Sargasso Sea, as you researched, is found in the Bermuda Triangle which is said and known to be a mysterious place, it seems to be a fitting title. It seems that the mystery lies both in Antoinette and Rochester's story. In Jane Eyre, the reader is neither presented with their stories nor their thoughts on what took place between them. Also, throughout this novel, there are many referances to moths and insects (as well as the one incident when CoCo was damaged and died from the fire) to show a common mystery in both these characters' lives. When the moths fly into the fire, they are flying into an outside influence or world that they were not previously aware of...it seems that both Rochester and Antoinette are presented and thurst into outside worlds...Antoinette is introduced to the seemingly different and isolated location of England and Rochester lived in the West Indies for a while...in the unknown and exotic forests of this land. Also, it seems that Antoinette was also afraid, fearful, or apprehensive of being abondoned in a different "world" (aka marraige) because she constantly dreams of getting lost in a forest or being unable to find her way. These feelings most likely arouse when she was a child and after her mother abondoned her as well as when her brother died, another form of abandonment. The mystery lies in the lack of communication and understanding. Notice now when Antoinette finally begins to open up to Rochester in the late hours of the night and darkness that he begins to abandon her? He broke that trust that she was finally getting back..the trust that she had lost towards many during her childhood, Tia, her mother, and the servant who help after they ran out of money.
In addition to your ideas Nicole, the title could also both glorify the natural aspect of the novel and emphasis the true distance that "Bertha" and Rochester develop between themselves.
Alisha, I have evidence to support Rhys negative view of Rochester. Rhys shapes Rochester's dialouges to make him seem like a bad character. For example, Rochester says "half-caste servant" (65)which further reveals his seperatist nature and how he feels about himself; superior. I found that line to be somewhat offensive, protraying Rochester as a man divided by social class.
In defending Rochester,however, it seems to me that he is not the source of the madness in Bertha in Jane Erye. This can be observed on pg 101 when Rochester "went to help her but she pushed [him] away, sat on the bed and with a clenched teeth pulled at the sheet". She pushed him away. I feel like he actually tried to make an effort, but she refused him, causing her own psychological demons to come out.
On a side note, like most of you I'm sure, I've noticed the reappearing motif of candles, an obvious paralell to Jane Erye. I find these candles to be somewhat like trail markers, appearing whenever some event Jane Erye like occurs. Also, the sense of foreshadowing in the novel is expansive.
Well, can't wait to se what unfolds in the end, so until then, adieu.
--Danielle
I finished!
Okay so going back to the comment about the looking-glass.
In my opinion the word looking-glass sounds a lot more elevated and more classier than the word mirror. I also have to agree with you on the fact that Antoinette never found her place all throughout her life. Her mother wasn't fond of her, nor was her step-father and Rochester goes and locks her up in a closet. On page 180, in the second paragraph, Antoinette describes that there is no looking-glass and she doesn't know what she's like now. She then explains how she would try and get close to her mom, "but the glass was between us - hard, cold, and misted over..." the glass acted as a barrier between her and her mother, which in my opinion, had a major effect on her since she was so young and her mother never really cared about her. And since then, she spent her life constantly trying to find a place where she belonged and a mirror reflects only what is seen on the outside which reflects the way Antoinette is. She was only seen from the outside point of view, no one took the time to really dig deep inside of her, and I personally think that neither did she.
In response to Nicole's connection, the Bermuda triangle is said to be where things are mysteriously lost. In the story, we don't know a ton about the people in it. Although we get to know more about Antoinette, do you really think we have come to find out enough about her like we did Jane Eyre? So in Antoinette, her mother, and her father's lives, they mysteriously lose their sanity [to us readers]. There is just so much we don't know about the characters like Daniel Cosway [?] and Christophine.
Also a triangle has three major points, and the book is divided into three significant parts.
But why do you think it has "Wide" in the title? What do you think that signifies?
So, like everyone else, I've finished the book. And I was surprised at how it ended, though looking now at it, I shouldn't have been. With its vagueness, it seems to be such a compliment to the structure of the rest of the novel. Like what everyone else was saying regarding the title of the book, there is this atmosphere of mystery. It seems like in both Rochester’s and Antoinette’s perspectives there are constant secrets we can never learn. Rochester says as he leaves Granbois that he will never know the secrets that it holds, and he comes to learn that maybe he isn’t supposed to.
What I really loved though was the structure of the ending scene. The way Rhys chooses to set up the dream. It seems like it could be reality, and as a reader I still think it might have been. Especially now, the new Bertha can’t tell the difference between her dreams and reality and she forgets most of what happens. And yet, this dream is reoccurring and seems so real.
With the symbolic fire yet again popping up. Being as there are 63 comments, I don’t know if someone else talked about the fire, I’m just betting at least 4 people did. But to me, the fire is a passionate symbol. Even in the end, Grace Poole still comments that she can see the fire and fierceness in Antoinette’s eyes and this fire is an element that follows her throughout her life it seems to plague her wherever she is, except in the convent, the one place she feels truly safe. In the beginning the fire comes upon her unwillingly, and in the end she chooses it as the method of communication to her husband. Antoinette repeatedly brought up the idea that she was thirsty. Whenever she drank the rum, it was out of thirst, she drank rain off the petals of jasmine, she was thirsty for love, and only Rochester could quench her. There is a staunch contrast between the fire inside her and her attempts to put it out. Even in her moments of “blank” with Rochester he can still feel the passion inside of her, he sees that it is dead, but he always knows it is inside and that is where his hope for her spirit to come back, at the departure of Granbois and Massacre.
For the novel to end with her carrying the candle down a dark path I think it is strangely optimistic, it’s as if the fire inside of her is finally coming back to life, and it is allowing her to find freedom form the jail she’s been forced into for years.
Finally, to answer a question I saw Michelle post up earlier, I guess I don’t think Bertha/ Antoinette is actually crazy. I think she was forced into a setting and a life she didn’t know how to get out of. Though I agree that Rochester certainly didn’t drive her to it, she seemed to always know it was expected of her to turn crazy. But in the end, I think her behaviors are only the attempt to hide from what was happening. She was scared and lonely and as she forgot what happened everyday I think it was just her way of coping with her life. In the final of moments of the novel she seems strangely coherent for a crazy lady, and when she is awakes, she seems less crazed than desperate.
Part two:
handrill seems to actually give Antoinette comfort and can answer her questions compared to her husband who can not comfort her or answer any of the questions she askes. What do you guys think about the handrill? Isn't strange that Antoinette can seek comfort in an object instead of her own husband?
"Isn't strange that Antoinette can seek comfort in an object instead of her own husband?"
I do think it is strange Farrah, and I feel like it is not Rochester acting foolish rather Antionette who is pushing him away. I can't help but put the blame on her.
So, I thought of another possible meaning to the title "Wide Sargasso Sea" and that it that the sea is a representation of the distance in views between Rochester and "Bertha". For example, Rochester seems to think that the warm temperate seas surrounding the Carribean are almost utopian and "Bertha" thinks that England is a utopian place. The difference in these two perceptions illustrate pehaps why the two never truly had deep feelings for one another and began to hate one another; they had two seperate ideas of what their perfect world was, causing them to drift worlds away (like on a wide sea =) ). Perhaps that's just overthinking it, but I believe that image can fit the mold.
So, afer finishing the book I have to say i enjoyed it because it gave me a true glimpse of a reasoning and mistreated Bertha. One line in particular allowed me to see the depth to her character not seen in Jane Erye; "But something you can tough and hold like my red dress, that has a meaning". Besides the obvious red and firey paraleel to the fire in Jane Erye, this line shows that Bertha is capable of meaningful thought and may not be the wild creature she is illustrated as. I feel Rhys does her a great justice in appealing to her sanity and at least giving her some ounce of dignity. I can see also why the fire may heavily repersent anger as well, since Bertha having such a close connection with it may reflect the true rage and hate she feels deep inside.
--Danielle.
There was a soft warm wind blowing but I understood why the porter had called it wild place. Not only wild but menacing. Those hills would close in on you. (69)
This quote shows us how the author is using nature again to show us how Rochestor is feeling, about being married to Anntoinette. He feels like he is trapped in his marriage.
Perched up on wooden stilts the house seemed to shrink from the forest behind it and crane eagerly out to the distant sea. It was more awkard than ugly, a little sad as if it knew it could not last. (72)
This quote again connects with Rochestor. He is comparing himself with the house and how he is becoming more and more distant from Antoinette. He is sad and knows that this marriage is not going to last because of his wife's behavior.
I found the similarities between Jane and Antionette-Bertha's childhoods really interesting. They both were brought up in environments where they were out of place and disliked. The fact that Jane was always last on Mrs. Reed's list of things to take care of is directly mirrored in Annette's always having to watch over Pierre. I also connected Christophine to Bessy because both children preferred them over their immediate caregiver.
Also, after the fire in the house, the book skips over a period of time like Jane does after the death of Helen Burns.
With all of these similarities, its interesting to see how differently the two women grew up to be in the end.
I also think, that its possible that the two have travelled down opposite paths. Jane went from being outspoken and unruly to more reserved and calm. But Antionette-Bertha went from quiet and reserved to loud, and inevitably crazy.
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